Israel/Palestine thread - Page 1015 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Trying to figure out how to constructively have the conversation about the impacts on Hamas using those UNWRA vehicles and UN schools for staging military ops. The last 24 hours the photo and video evidence on this has again brought the issue up.

If we can accept all the faults in the IDF plan, and there are many faults, then I think we have to recognize the innocent lives being risked by Hamas when they insist on using these sorts of agencies for operational cover. Innocent people die from this insistence on fighting this way. We could have far less dead in a world where this sort of thing wasn't done. And simultaneously I completely understand why they do it (because it's working).

The IDF plan is bs and its failing. thats bc the IDF is too inexperienced and quite litterally is acting crazy now.

If you had to do an insurgency, the IDF is the last you would ask for help.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 09:47 AM

#25352

Victor

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73,070

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafiki

I mean what's the point? The IDF released drone footage, and also battled Hamas fighters in an UNWRA building.

Reuters and company have run the stories (the school, the marked UN vehicles, etc).

Anything I post you'll say "can't trust the IDF"

So frankly I have no interest in doing this loop with you that we always do. I'll let the others discuss it.

Id like to see the drone footage. or the Reuters article.

but its looking like this is going to go the same way the whole bullshit about reduced deaths went.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 09:47 AM

#25353

washoe

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 8,519

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafiki

We just never get to quantify the impact on the human tragedy that form of fighting has. And it definitely has some. This fight could be a lot cleaner than it is. On both sides surely.

could be cleaner on both sides? one side is caged like anmimals and the other side is controlling all supplies. HOW IS that clean? thats not even a clean fight.

Last edited by washoe; 05-15-2024 at 10:01 AM.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 09:53 AM

#25354

Victor

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73,070

this is ofc what rafki is talking about. (its really easy to find where he gets his propaganda). we are not supposed to make inferences on intent, but I will just say I find it pretty telling that he did not link to the tweet given it was immediately debunked and the guy got ratioed.

yes during a famine and war, food and aid is guarded by armed police. this does not give Israel carte blanche to murder UN workers and children.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 09:59 AM

#25355

Victor

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73,070

a quick google search did not find the Reuters article. again, we are not supposed to guess at intent of posters.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 09:59 AM

#25356

washoe

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 8,519

they are planning to give gaza back to the settlers.
over 50% of bibs party are all for it. 26% of the rest of population.
its the settlers wet dream, they get gaza back and can build the riviera on top of dead children they just blew up. wtf?
gazans in that vision dont exist.

Last edited by washoe; 05-15-2024 at 10:09 AM.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 10:10 AM

#25357

Victor

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73,070

Quote:

Originally Posted by washoe

[

Quote

05-15-2024 , 10:22 AM

#25358

jalfrezi

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,192

Gross and completely disgusting.

"but not genocide" my arse

Quote

05-15-2024 , 10:52 AM

#25359

Luciom

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 6,434

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

yes during a famine and war, food and aid is guarded by armed police. this does not give Israel carte blanche to murder UN workers and children.

Well the whole idea is that there aren't "good Hamas guys" you know? the "police" are terrorists, they can't oversee aid disbursal in any capacity or they will keep using it for their aims lol, that's one of the main reasons for the invasion, cutoff Hamas income stream from aid siphoning.

There are no legitimate Hamas members in general, they all have a death sentence upon their head and they are all terrorists.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 10:54 AM

#25360

washoe

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 8,519

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

[

yea

Last edited by washoe; 05-15-2024 at 11:01 AM.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 10:54 AM

#25361

PointlessWords

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,815

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

Everyone is entitled to an opinion including holocaust survivors. I can still disagree with his opinion

Sure but can you do it logically?

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:03 AM

#25362

Victor

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73,070

this dude is 100% getting bombed by the end of the week

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:08 AM

#25363

Crossnerd

quite smart as well

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 39,749

I really appreciate all the support and effort I’ve seen from you guys so far.

I’ve seen a few things that were pretty close to the edge but for the most part you’re all doing great.

One note, and I don’t mean this to pick on Mets bc there were a couple others too, but if we can, let’s try to avoid posts like below that are really only about each other and not content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

Yes the only way you will be hsppy is no Jewish State

Also, washoe I appreciate your edits. Thank you

Otherwise

and carry on!

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:16 AM

#25364

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,075

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

you are right. they will surely regroup and continue the terrorization and theft. the only way this ends is when Israel ends.

Not having a state of Israel is not necessarily anti-Zionist, at least that's what the moron and Zionist Albert Einstein thought.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:22 AM

#25365

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,075

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

the "police" are terrorists

True enough, but there's a thread for that.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...lice+brutality

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:25 AM

#25366

Victor

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73,070

thats what the reeducation camps are for

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:34 AM

#25367

metsandfinsfan

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 159,467

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

Sure but can you do it logically?

Yes

Israel needs to get hamas out of power for their future survival
Civilian death is an unfortunate consequence but still not genocide

Very logical

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:36 AM

#25368

metsandfinsfan

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 159,467

Quote:

Originally Posted by washoe

Again it isn't true

I'll bet you 1000 dollars there will be no Israeli settlers in gaza in the next 10 years

Cross can escrow

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:38 AM

#25369

metsandfinsfan

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 159,467

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Not having a state of Israel is not necessarily anti-Zionist, at least that's what the moron and Zionist Albert Einstein thought.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:42 AM

#25370

PointlessWords

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,815

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

Yes

Israel needs to get hamas out of power for their future survival
Civilian death is an unfortunate consequence but still not genocide

Very logical

I haven’t seen anything to suggest Hamas could wipe out Israel.

Do you think that because Israel can wipe out Hamas that Palestine has to get the IDF out of power for its future survival?

Of course civilian death (like Oct 7) is an unfortunate consequence but not genocide

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:42 AM

#25371

Victor

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73,070

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

Yes

Israel needs to get hamas out of power for their future survival
Civilian death is an unfortunate consequence but still not genocide

Very logical

sure its not genocide. genocide is an abstraction. its a term for generalization.

lets call it what it really is

-mass murder of people
-mass decapitation of people
-mass burying alive of people
-mass burning alive of people
-mass blowing up of people
-mass starvation of people
-mass amputation of people
-mass torture of people where they are forced to sit blindfolded and in diapers for months on end
-destruction of all infrastucture including electricity, water, housing

a country that does these things on such a scale has no right to exist. Jewish or not. nothing special about them despite what the Habara has told us for decades.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:45 AM

#25372

PointlessWords

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,815

Well nobody has a right to exist. Force or the appearance of force is what lets countries exist imo

These days, almost every country knows that if you invade your neighbor with tanks and planes, they are going to start popping up out of holes shooting your tanks and running cheap drones into your airfields

You used to have a problem when guys had AKs, RPGs and mortars. Now they have drones too. Goodbless the guerilla fighters, they are brave and nuts.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:52 AM

#25373

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,075

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

Citing the dictionary is dumb like saying "Econ 101!" or "First Principles!" is. It is actually possible to get deeper into a subject. If your understanding of Zionism is limited to the dictionary, you should read more.

Quote

05-15-2024 , 11:58 AM

#25374

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,075

Encyclopedias aren't deep into a subject, but sure as hell deeper than dictionaries.

Quote:

Einstein was a prominent supporter of both Labor Zionism and efforts to encourage Jewish–Arab cooperation.[24] In 1938 Einstein explained "In this hour one thing, above all, must be emphasized: Judaism owes a great debt of gratitude to Zionism. The Zionist movement has revived among Jews the sense of community. It has performed productive work surpassing all the expectations any one could entertain. This productive work in Palestine, to which self-sacrificing Jews throughout the world have contributed has saved a large number of our brethren from direst need".[25] Einstein supported the creation of a Jewish national homeland in the British mandate of Palestine but was opposed to the idea of a Jewish state "with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power."[26]: 33 According to Marc Elis, Einstein declared himself a human being, a Jew, an opponent of nationalism, and a Zionist; he supported the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine but until summer 1947 conceived of this as a bi-national (Jewish and Arab) state, with "continuously functioning, mixed, administrative, economic, and social organizations."

Einstein wasn't just making up some unheard of position. This was a common position among Zionists and one that wasn't ignored before the "coup".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biltmore_Conference

Quote:

The program has been described by a number of historians as "a virtual coup d’état" within Zionism since the movement's more moderate leaders were replaced with leaders with more aggressive goals.

Of course this post will be ignored by mets. Maybe someone else will read it.