It's because Israel was deliberately, artificially and imperialistically created as a zone of settlement for Europeans and later North Americans, premised on the displacement of the native Arab population. And, while this was just about acceptable under the UN Partition Plan after the Second World War, because so many distressed European Jews wanted to go there, Israel then engaged in territorial aggression in 1967, and the real problem lies in the continuing occupation since that time.

Agree 100%. As I said I don't agree with every action that has resulted from this, but the desire to set up a homeland three years after the Holocaust should be completely understandable.

lol

The Jews were there before Islam was a thing, before it was a blight on the planet.

But keep rehashing this mickey mouse, most recent
century

Do you think Palestinians are a blight? You said kill them all, right?

This is a complete non starter that no one serious wants, or would even allow. It would create too much regional instability.

You feel it is morally right (which is fine), but geopolitically it is a complete nonstarter, much like your belief there should be no borders at all.

lol, you just keep piling on ad hoc rules for why no other people get to play the same game. Now there's a three-year limit on reporting?

It's not a falsely equivalent example at all, it's just when you see things from a neutral perspective, it's easier to see how asinine this moral framework you're cobbling together is.

If the Celtics had reclaimed the land 80 years ago at the end of WWII when lots of borders around the world changed and lots of people were forced to emigrate, and have been living there for 4+ generations and created a prosperous first world nation, I absolutely believe they should get to keep it.

I do find it telling how Turkey and Aizerbaijan have seized so much land in the last 80 years, and created real genocides in doing so (very much still ongoing) and no one cares. Once again demonstrated this is about tribalism and/or ideology, and no first principles are involved.

I've talked repeatedly about how I think any movement towards peace, let alone one unified state, is probably a generation away. That doesn't mean it can't happen. But, yeah, my point is that is what is morally correct and regardless of what is realistic at the moment, it should be kept in mind even by policy makers and there's no reason for people chatting on a tiny politics forum not to talk about what they think is right and wrong instead of what is immediately practical. This is just entertainment.

eta: And peace has been closer in the past and your BS about Arab cultures being all ancient is BS as they were more Western in the past (like the 1970s) in places like Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran and Lebanon. It's war that's making things bad and worse, not Islam.

I think Iran is the big wild card as far as what will be possible in the future. All the IRI leaders are Trump/Biden age, and the direction Iran goes when they finally all die I think will shape the future of the ME.

You'd support Irish, Welsh and Scots "Celts" 80 years ago reclaiming parts of Eastern France from people born there and living there, as part of their Celtic heritage and birthright? lol?

I cant really track this post, but I do think any group that has been living on "stolen" land for the last 4+ generations should get to keep it. And the people displaced should have the ability to move on and make new lives for themselves. I mean, we should do what we can to stop this kind of stuff from happening in the present; but I dont think it is a productive, realistic exercise to try to undo the results of wars that happened long before any of us were born.

For example, I think Turkey should get to keep all the land they stole during their various genocides over the last 100 years. And if Russia holds Eastern Ukraine and Crimea for 80 years, Ukraine and the west should just accept that is the new reality.

And in all cases displaced persons should be given every opportunity to relocate and thrive, not be stuck in refugee camps generationally.

And I do think it is highly problematic to decide which wars you want to undo, and which you dont, based on your own ideology and racism; which is basically what you all are doing.

A unified state is not happening ever

A two state can happen in a few generations

I know radical Islam is a serious problem. Opposite the Israelic State, you think the Islamic State is the lesser of two evils.

This is the far left Israeli position. In a few generations we might give freedom if you promise not to get uppity.

Talking about Palestinians and IDF

Mets, think about how much the settlements will have grown in that time. And the ugly ways settlers are currently pushing farmers out.

The settlements have already subsumed any possible Palestinian state.

I disagree still

What’s subsumed mean here

Israel needs to man up and remove settlements and stop their expansion.

The moderate and left wing Israelis, including Arab Israelis btw, have stood by for way too long and allowed Bibi and other right wing extremists to subvert the rule of law that gives Israel moral and legal legitimacy.

Lol

The UN has made more motions against Israel than the rest of the world combined. If the rest of the world is going to treat you as enemy #1 regardless, might as well get something out of it.

Also, the West Bank is high elevation ground overlooking all of Israel's main population centers. There is actual very real security considerations. From the West Bank a terrorist group like Hamas or Hezbollah could rain terror down on Israel and there is nothin the Iron Dome could do about it.

Given the Arab penchant for shooting missiles and rockets at Israel (at the state, militia and lone wolf level) any drawing of maps for a 2 state solution has to put this reality into account.

"2. To absorb (something) into or cause (something) to be overshadowed by something else."

The settlements grew under Labor governments, too; they are consensus, not right wing extremist. There's never been sufficient opposition to the settlements. Now they are a done deal, there's no Palestine left.