Can you imagine if Americans went around bombing people and fomenting civil wars? It would be outrageous.

inconceivable

So are you giving up on the comparison between radical christians and radical islamists? Because that’s a different talking point (also stupid). Actually not sure if you’re capable of doing anything but sloganeering as that’s all I see you do, but anyway…

I can't help you with the details of those conflicts. If you think the the actions of those countries towards the civilian populations was acceptable then I won't really argue with you bc there is no point and infact I will commend your consistency.

Yeah I think the actions of the North Vietnamese of capturing, torturing, and executing civilians that they thought were traitors was pretty bad, I agree. I also think their use of IEDs in civilian populations and using civilian centers as booby traps was pretty bad. Did the US do some bad stuff too during that war? Absolutely. The point is that your side only seems interested in calling out the US so your moralizing can sometimes come off as insincere, to put it mildly.

Run, kid run!

https://x.com/MairavZ/status/1837767276675678587

I didn't think we would see apologia for the Vietnam war but here we are

vietnam has a right to defend itself

Of course. That's the government we are responsible for.

wait you feel responsible for what the government of your country does even if you disagree with it?

it wasn't Vietnam under attack it was the north with us helping the south.

you guys forgot the dynamics of the war, as if we invaded Vietnam.

we sided with a party in a civil war, one party was Marxist and that automatically removes all legitimacy definitionally.

Marxists have no right to exist

Apologia for the Vietnam war? All I said was that the North Vietnamese used disgusting tactics but that doesn't seem to stop leftists from saying that their "struggle" was morally correct. I'm pointing out that your standards for Israel are a fantasy that no side ever actually believes in. There will be civilian deaths and killing of combatants, and it's not murder.

This is exactly my point though. If you compare Israel tactics to other governments you probably would support throughout history, Israel comes out as one of the most saintly and merciful countries ever.

My friend, you realize that when we are talking about geopolitics, it is oftentimes a zero sum game, right? If the US were to say tomorrow "we're never going to fight a war again, we're never going to support anyone else's war, we're going to sit here by ourselves and I don't care what happens" that would open the doors for any number of other actors to step in and start doing things that are way worse. But I guess you're one of those people that thinks even the US was wrong to enter WW2 and fight the Nazis.

This is beyond the scope of what I'm even talking about. All I'm trying to do is get them to realize that their supposed moral high ground has never existed, and that the US and Israel are the moral high ground in the grand scheme of things. Killing civilians, killing combatants, even if it's a horrible thing that no one wants, it is not murder and in the context of war we can't just evaluate whether a war was just based on some isolated actions in a vacuum, as if any war ever is ever evaluated that way by anyone.

check raise,

You are way overthinking things IMO. The leftists in this thread just hate Western Civilization and want it destroyed; and will happily support any actor who they see as fellow travellers in this endgame. And will ignore any moral transgressions such actors commit.

in the pursuit of the Pax Americana (a blessing to the world) the USA did some heinous things.

some of that was good faith mistakes (I believe they actually believd domino theory for Vietnam for example, but they were totally wrong), a lot wasn't.

I think it's good that some people remind us that many American actions weren't justified even under OUR (capitalist, soft imperialist) worldview and I have no problem admitting when that's the case.

for example we can start from the second atomic bomb on Nagasaki which wasn't justified not even at the time (not only ex post). not with that modality.

The USA killing Mattei in Italy to avoid Italy developing northern African oil was bad for ex. many such cases.

I haven't really looked at the last couple pages of this thread. I am guessing I should not expect a lot of condemnation of the recent escalation by Hezbollah by the usual suspects that are constantly criticizing Israel.

Correct?

no apparently they are "decolonizing" so it's all good

True, I know this, but it’s more satisfying to get them to admit it and that they would gladly see a nuke dropped in the middle of manhattan if it meant damaging “American Imperialism” or something nebulous like that.

they arent targeting civilians and they are defending themselves. so yes, its good. now, if they were to detonate some sort of bomb that maimed thousands of civilians, that would be bad!

Hezbollah bombs good! Israel bombs bad!

There am I doing it right?

Pacificists are those who refuse to admit they could abjure violence only because others are committing violence on their behalf.