Immigrants and Refugees being held in inhumane conditions - Page 4 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

It's hard to take your complaints seriously when you and a few others throw 'nazi' abut so much - what do you expect when you then start talkign about concentration camps?. It ain't about you so sorry if you get tired about it. I get tired of politics wasting so much effort on name calling instead of focusing on the issues but we will cope wont we?

I agree on closing them. If not then humane conditions is an absolute minimum for all prisons/detention centres/etc

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However, it wasn’t until Jackson*that*“emigration depots”*were introduced as an integral part of official US Indian removal policy. Tens of thousands of Cherokee, Muscogee, Seminole, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Ponca, Winnebago and other indigenous peoples were forced from their homes at gunpoint and marched to prison camps in Alabama and Tennessee. Overcrowding and a lack of sanitation led to outbreaks of measles, cholera, whooping cough, dysentery and typhus, while insufficient food and water, along with exposure to the elements, caused tremendous death and suffering.

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Around 1,700 Dakota women, children and elderly were force-marched into a concentration camp built on a sacred spiritual site. Many didn’t make it there.*According to*Mendota Dakota Tribal Chair Jim Anderson, “during that march a lot of our relatives died. They were killed by settlers; when they went through the small towns, babies were taken out of mothers arms and killed and women… were shot or bayoneted.” Those who survived faced winter storms, diseases and hunger. Many did not make it through the winter.

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He meant it. In December 1901 Bell gave the people of Batangas two weeks to leave their homes and report to the camp; everything they left behind —*their homes, farms, livestock, food stores and tools —*was stolen or destroyed by US troops. People who refused to report to the camp were shot, as were random prisoners whenever insurgents killed an American. Conditions were beyond horrific in many reconcentrados. Hunger, disease and torture, which included waterboarding, were rampant. In some camps, as many as 20 percent of internees died

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During both world wars, thousands of German nationals,*German-Americans*and Germans from Latin American nations were imprisoned in concentration camps across the United States. However, their race and relatively high level of assimilation saved most German-Americans from internment, and conditions were much better than they had been in previous US camps. Japanese-Americans weren’t so lucky. After the attack on Pearl Harbor, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued*Executive Order 9066, under which all people of Japanese ancestry living on the West Coast were rounded up and imprisoned in dozens of civilian assembly centers (where they were often forced to sleep in crowded, manure-covered horse stables), relocation centers, military bases, and “citizen isolation centers” — harsh desert prison camps*where “problem inmates,” including those who refused to pledge allegiance to the United States, were jailed.*

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Nearly 900 Aleuts were imprisoned in abandoned factories and other derelict facilities without plumbing, electricity or toilets; decent food, potable water and warm winter clothing were in short supply. Nearly 10 percent of the detainees died in the camps.*Others were enslaved*and forced to hunt fur seals.

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During the early years of the Cold War, Congress passed the*Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950*over President Harry Truman’s veto, which led to the construction of six concentration camps that were meant to hold communists, peace activists, civil rights leaders and others deemed a threat in the event the government declared a state of emergency. The act was upheld by the Supreme Court during the McCarthy/Red Scare years but in the 1960s the high court ruled* that provisions requiring communists to register with the government and banning them from obtaining passports or government employment were unconstitutional. The camps, which were never used, were closed by the end of the decade.

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In a little-known atrocity, at least 3,000 Okinawans died from malaria and other diseases in camps set up by US troops after they conquered the Japanese islands during fierce fighting in 1945. During and after the war, Okinawans’ land and homes were seized at gunpoint and their houses and farms were bulldozed or burned to the ground to make way for dozens of US military bases. Some 300,000 civilians were forced into these camps; survivor Kenichiro Miyazato*later recalled*how “too many people died, so the bodies had to be buried in a single mass grave.”

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For sheer scale, no US concentration camp regime could match the*Strategic Hamlet Program. In 1961 President John F. Kennedy approved the forcible relocation, often at gunpoint, of 8.5 million South Vietnamese peasants into over 7,000 fortified camps surrounded by barbed wire, minefields and armed guards. This was done to starve the growing Viet Cong insurgency of food, shelter and new recruits.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.com...on-camps%3famp

Now you might be saying, "some of those occurred during war"

Well let's check in with what our President has been saying

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Since buckling on the issue on Wednesday, Trump has redoubled his criticism of US immigration laws on Twitter and in speeches where he likened illegal immigrants to invaders trying to “break into” the country.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scm...-immigrants-no

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A day after the acting*Homeland Security secretary*estimated that more than 1 percent of the populations of Guatemala and Honduras had entered the U.S. since September,*President Trump*declared an “invasion” at the U.S.-Mexico border.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox...-guatemala.amp

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A roar rose from the crowd of thousands of Trump supporters in Panama City Beach on Wednesday night, as President Trump noted yet again that Border Patrol agents can’t use weapons to deter migrants. “How do you stop these people?” he asked.

“Shoot them!” someone yelled from the crowd, according to reporters on the scene and attendees.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.wa...outputType=amp

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Trump explained why he felt a national emergency was warranted to stop migrants from entering the US.

“People hate the word ‘invasion,’ but that’s what it is,” he said, according to the White House pool report.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...k-invade-trump

No need to mention the Nazis at all

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06-24-2019 , 10:46 PM

#77

Luckbox Inc

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Originally Posted by MrWookie

Would you like to wager on when Mitch McConnell brings to a vote a bill to defund ICE in its entirety to ensure that every single one of the mother****ers responsible for this is out of a job?

The more interesting wagers would be on what happens if democrats take office.

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06-24-2019 , 10:54 PM

#78

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,099

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Originally Posted by coordi

I wouldn't claim either of those positions for myself.

For the record I'm claiming that you should be worked up over the foster system and homeless people. Probably more so. Much more so.

We should absolutely be far more active in our opposition to homelessness and other appalling conditions for people (know nothing about your foster system)

and although it's unrelated to the OP in most ways, I don't seriously doubt it's the case that once people have accepted homelessness as some sort of normal state of affairs then it's much harder to get them to care about other inhuman treatment.

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06-24-2019 , 11:11 PM

#79

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

The more interesting wagers would be on what happens if democrats take office.

What would you propose?

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06-24-2019 , 11:12 PM

#80

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,099

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Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

No need to mention the Nazis at all

Indeed and if it they weren't constantly being brought up by the likes of fly then it would be easier to talk about ... well pretty much everything

Concentration camps were first used by the brits I believe ~50k boers died. There's sadly, no shortage of atrocities. The camps in question here are totally unacceptable and I can barely bring myself to think about the camps so many Syrian/etc refugees are living in. But they aren't Aushwitz and that's the sort of association many people will make.

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06-24-2019 , 11:16 PM

#81

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,099

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

The more interesting wagers would be on what happens if democrats take office.

One would like to think the democrats have a policy saying what they will do. (if not now then well before the election). Do they? - anyone?

That's a huge part of what the left has to demand. Protesting the other side is mostly pissing in the wind if we don't develop alternative policies and fundamentally change stuff when we win.

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06-24-2019 , 11:19 PM

#82

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Up until Hue's post and now mine, you and coordi were the only ones who had used the word "Nazi" in this thread. Perhaps you should consider the fact that the only concentration camps that get brought to mind when the term "concentration camps" gets bandied about are the Nazi ones to be your own personal failing rather than the failing of the people using the term correctly.

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06-24-2019 , 11:25 PM

#83

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,099

which would be a good point if this thread was somehow magically isolated from the rest of the discourse. But sadly that isn't the case. Sounds like you agree that 'nazi' shouldn't come up so often which is good to hear.

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concentration camps that get brought to mind when the term "concentration camps" gets bandied about are the Nazi ones to be your own personal failing

This is totally untrue of course.

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06-24-2019 , 11:26 PM

#84

Kelhus999

banned

Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 3,282

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Originally Posted by MrWookie

Sorry, words have meanings in the world. That is just how culture and language work. You don't get to ignore this when it is politically expedient. I understand you want it to be one way, but it is the other way.

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06-24-2019 , 11:27 PM

#85

Luckbox Inc

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Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 61,303

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

One would like to think the democrats have a policy saying what they will do. (if not now then well before the election). Do they? - anyone?

That's a huge part of what the left has to demand. Protesting the other side is mostly pissing in the wind if we don't develop alternative policies and fundamentally change stuff when we win.

The left has never won is the thing. Which is what makes what democrats do when in power interesting since they aren't the left they just play them on tv.

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06-24-2019 , 11:29 PM

#86

Kelhus999

banned

Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 3,282

The term "concentration camp" has historical connotation and meaning that goes way beyond the Websters Dictionary. I mean using your logic I could argue that "*****" is just a female dog and "gay" is just happy, so I should be able to call people bitches and gay, and if you have a problem with this is is your own personal failing, as I am just using the terms correctly.

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06-24-2019 , 11:30 PM

#87

Trolly McTrollson

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Originally Posted by coordi

I say some brash and outright inflammatory stuff, and sometimes I might be poking or prodding (as in, maybe not fully good faith).

So you're deliberately trolling us and yet you're also furious that fly doesn't like you? Like, what is the endgame here? If I was to make bad-faith posts that are designed to inflame people (this is technically against the rules here, but we both know the rules don't apply to Team Eugenics), I wouldn't be the least bit upset if people clapped back.

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06-24-2019 , 11:31 PM

#88

Trolly McTrollson

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Originally Posted by Kelhus999

Does it feel weird to you that you're in lockstep with the guy who just admitted he's making bad-faith arguments? That would give me pause. I'll tell you that.

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06-24-2019 , 11:33 PM

#89

Kelhus999

banned

Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 3,282

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Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

Does it feel weird to you that you're in lockstep with the guy who just admitted he's making bad-faith arguments? That would give me pause. I'll tell you that.

Chezlaw?

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06-24-2019 , 11:35 PM

#90

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,099

He meant Cordi but I'm sure I'd do just as well. It's just dunking after all

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06-24-2019 , 11:37 PM

#91

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,099

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

The left has never won is the thing. Which is what makes what democrats do when in power interesting since they aren't the left they just play them on tv.

Sadly they are a right wing party - just not quite as right wing. But it doesn't have to remain that way and there a few glimmers of hope.

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06-24-2019 , 11:37 PM

#92

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Indeed and if it they weren't constantly being brought up by the likes of fly then it would be easier to talk about ... well pretty much everything

Like what specifically. How am I making it "hard" to talk about this? Seems pretty ****ing easy to me. We're all doing it right now, well, we were, until you guys decided to dive headfirst into the "don't call them concentration camps" thing to change the subject from right wing actions to left wing language.

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Concentration camps were first used by the brits I believe ~50k boers died. There's sadly, no shortage of atrocities. The camps in question here are totally unacceptable and I can barely bring myself to think about the camps so many Syrian/etc refugees are living in. But they aren't Aushwitz and that's the sort of association many people will make.

I don't see the issue. This seems like yet another transparently reverse-engineered demand to change the rules of political rhetoric to protect right wingers' feelings from accurate descriptions of their preferred policy outcomes.

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06-24-2019 , 11:39 PM

#93

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Sadly they are a right wing party - just not quite as right wing. But it doesn't have to remain that way and there a few glimmers of hope.

Is one of the "glimmers of hope" Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, chezlaw? Ilhan Omar?

Who on Earth are you referring to, if not them.

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06-24-2019 , 11:40 PM

#94

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,078

Quote:

Originally Posted by coordi

I say some brash and outright inflammatory stuff, and sometimes I might be poking or prodding (as in, maybe not fully good faith).

I think there's at least a little room in politics for provocation. Like, I thought my thread about the non-existence of natural rights was intended to be mildly provocative. But I agree with, and generally mod according to, the idea that if you're going to be intentionally provocative then you should expect stronger reactions from people. So I don't think you should complain about the reactions you get if you're doing it on purpose.

However, I would also appreciate it if you'd do a little less of it, or do it in a way that doesn't derail threads. And with that said it would be nice to get this thread back to actually talking immigrant detainment rather than the posters.

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06-24-2019 , 11:43 PM

#95

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,099

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

Is one of the "glimmers of hope" Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, chezlaw? Ilhan Omar?

Who on Earth are you referring to, if not them.

Definitely thinking of AOC. Also people like you and wookie. Not familiar with IO

I'm from the UK where fortunately we have a left wing party - I may have been a tiny part of the glimmer when we were stuck with 'new labour' but hope sprung. Now we just have to win and do stuff - we have real policies and everything (well most things - still working on brexit).

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06-24-2019 , 11:45 PM

#96

John21

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,558

Migrant Children Moved From Border Patrol Center After Outcry

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More than 200 migrant children detained in a remote Border Patrol station in southwest Texas without adequate food, water and sanitation have been moved after news of the conditions became public last week.

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06-24-2019 , 11:46 PM

#97

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

AOC calling them concentration camps is why this thread exists, for ****'s sake, it's what pushed this story back into the headlines.

It's good that it is a polarizing, divisive term. Having people confront the horror is valuable. Having people know that many, many of their fellow citizens are in favor of concentration camps mobilizes the public.

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06-24-2019 , 11:51 PM

#98

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelhus999

In your own words, what are the distinguishing factors between these facilities and KZ Dachau c. 1934 that render the comparison wholly inappropriate?

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06-24-2019 , 11:56 PM

#99

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,099

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

You seem confused about something. I don't object to them being called concentration camps - they are concentration camps.

Where we disagree is on your name calling thingy. And that polorization is a political disaster - the idea is to get things changed not to be able to be on the worthy side of a divide.