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Old 06-30-2020, 02:20 PM   #376
EADGBE
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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Ok. I think that's just a misunderstanding then. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone argue it was intended to be discriminatory. Just that it was.
The post I was replying to framed S&F as a mayoral directive to harass black people.

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This is a nice link, thanks. Where are you reading the conclusion about definite short term effects? What I'm seeing is this section on Stop, Question, and Frisk (begins at p. 148):

I'm not seeing anything about short vs. long term results, and some of the specific details described (e.g. focusing on high-risk repeat offenders) seem quite different from the kind of racial profiling stops I was discussing.

I'm wondering if maybe you're describing other proactive policing policies that are not specifically stop and frisk?
On re-read you may be correct.

"CONCLUSION 4-9 Evaluations of focused uses of stop, question, and frisk (SQF) (combined with other self-initiated enforcement activities by officers), targeting places with violence or serious gun crimes and focusing on high-risk repeat offenders, consistently report short-term crime-reduction effects; jurisdictional impacts, when estimated, are modest. There is an absence of evidence on the long-term impacts of focused uses of SQF on crime."

It states in combination with other proactive policing. Although, one could argue it is then impossible to isolate the effects of S&F if they are always done in tandem with other proactive policing efforts.

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To be clear, I'm not arguing against policing in general.
I think my main gripes are the new catch and release policies in combination with a proposed (now just confirmed today by De Blasio, actually) drastic reduction in police force size. Hence the rant.

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#amerikkka
Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:32 PM   #377
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion.
theres really no reason to discuss anything with people like you.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:40 PM   #378
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

This is exactly why mobs of woke 20 somethings who are all '**** the police' because they got arrested for marijuana possession at 15 shouldn't be forcing politicians into major policy decisions.
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Old 06-30-2020, 03:00 PM   #379
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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The post I was replying to framed S&F as a mayoral directive to harass black people.
FWIW, if you mean Wookie's post then I read it differently. He doesn't mention intent, only that it was a mayoral directive that suffered from disproportionate impact.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:47 PM   #380
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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#amerikkka

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Old 07-01-2020, 01:26 AM   #381
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

“Because this is so very much a TWA (3rd wave antiracism) moment and because its perspective has been creeping into the fabric of educated American society over several years, we are becoming desensitized to how ancillary to civic progress is this peculiar, furious, and fantastical indoctrination.

We seek sociopolitical change, yet we find on the vanguards a contingent who have founded a new religion. They insist hotly that they "really are right," because racism is bad, isn't it?

Indeed it is. But it is also bad for increasing numbers of Americans, out of fear for their social acceptance in wider society, pretend to subscribe to the semi-coherent tenets of an anti-empirical faith feigning higher wisdom with big words and manipulative phraseology.

They see themselves as the heirs of bygone heroes who would actually have been sickened by them. Progressive Americans' task is not to learn charismatic but purposeless self-flagellational routines, but to fight injustices with sense and logic. Only TWA adherents think the two are the same.“


https://reason.com/2020/06/29/kneeli...ocial-justice/
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:41 AM   #382
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

If the Right suffers from stupidity and racism, the left suffers from arrogance and self-righteousness. Conservatives that complain of deplatforming kind of have a point. In the new 'Lefty' political climate if you don't agree with my views 100% you are shouted down by the mob or 'canceled.' I feel we've come full circle to the point where the Liberals are now the ones shutting down all discourse, which is frightening.

Case in point the attitude of ol' Victor here and those like him. Case in point Conservative posters being routinely banned in the past from this forum and accused of trolling for expressing their viewpoints.
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:07 AM   #383
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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In the new 'Lefty' political climate if you don't agree with my views 100% you are shouted down by the mob or 'canceled.'
...
Case in point the attitude of ol' Victor here and those like him. Case in point Conservative posters being routinely banned in the past from this forum and accused of trolling for expressing their viewpoints.
Victor has not shouted down or canceled anyone, and there is no shortage of trolling conservative droolers in this forum.
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:28 AM   #384
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

I said the attitude he just displayed is what I am referring to coming out of the left these days, re the stifling of civil discourse:

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theres really no reason to discuss anything with people like you.
Also, as long as people are arguing in good faith, I wouldn't classify them as trolls. There is a certain condescension in calling people stupid (deserved or not) for holding opinions contrary to yourself, which is what I was referring to by the "arrogance" coming out of the left these days.
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:29 AM   #385
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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This is exactly why mobs of woke 20 somethings who are all '**** the police' because they got arrested for marijuana possession at 15 shouldn't be forcing politicians into major policy decisions.
i mean. i'm a criminal attorney in my 30's and i would have the same response. it had a massively racist outcome and you cant even seem to show was effective at what it was trying to do.


to your other point, dismissing dumb and racist ideas/thoughts isn't "canceling" conservatives, its just deciding not to play into the karl rove playbook through spending double to triple the amount of time combating stupid/racist ideas as it takes to push them out.
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:14 AM   #386
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

You may agree with them, but my point in that post you quote is that the mob is imposing their views on others by force. Were you camped outside City Hall for the past 2 weeks dictating terms? Why is this subset of the population entitled to have their political views pushed upon everyone else who may or may not agree?

Also, below is what I am referring to, not **** like overtly racist white nationalist garbage. Saying all Conservative viewpoints are stupid/racist garbage is dismissive and intellectually lazy.

San Diego PD shoot a man who pulls on gun on them.

https://www.10news.com/news/local-ne...town-san-diego

A protester mob forms to demand "justice" for him because the police shouldn't have shot him, but subdued him by other means (lol?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvqR7en9S30

At around the 4:45 timestamp a man argues with protestors and sides with the police saying what the protestors are doing is not right, etc. As soon as the man walks out of sight of the police line, he is assaulted by the mob while protestors scream "stop recording" (the irony there is palpable). It's just pure idiocy at its finest. There is just zero room given for nuance now. You either agree with the mob that ALL those experiencing force at the hands of police are victims, or you are a racist who's views are invalid.
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:44 AM   #387
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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I don't know exactly what they mean by defunding the police. I think that the people proposing these ideas are talking about a lot of things. But totally dismantling the police isn't it. But the police don't need to spend large portions of the budgets purchasing bazookas, armored vehicles, and other war materials from the military.
The police don't need to be the ones answering a call for a medical emergency, like when someone, for example, is suffering an epileptic seizure. Or to discipline school children.They themselves say they're not trained for that stuff.
If you are at all left like you claim, you'd recognize and acknowledge that changes need to be made.

Otherwise, stop the bs
no they mean literally disbanding the police, let by AOC and the new left

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ale...funding-police
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:22 PM   #388
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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no they mean literally disbanding the police, let by AOC and the new left

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ale...funding-police
That article does a pretty solid job of rebutting your claim that "they mean literally disbanding the police, let [sic] by AOC and the new left", since it doesn't talk about disbanding police at all!

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“It does not mean counting overtime cuts as cuts, even as NYPD ignores every attempt by City Council to curb overtime spending and overspends on overtime anyways,” Ocasio-Cortez continued. “If these reports are accurate, then these proposed ‘cuts’ to the NYPD budget are a disingenuous illusion. This is not a victory. The fight to defund policing continues.”
Pretty weird quote talking about budget nuances from someone who wants to "literally disband police" lol
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:26 PM   #389
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

Donald Trump is the king of cancel culture; No other politician has spent more time trying to cancel those who offend him

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“Social justice warriors are waging a dangerous 'Cancel Cultural Revolution,’” screams the headline in the New York Post. “Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, who’s next on the statue cancellation tour?” demands Fox’s Greg Gutfeld. Democrats are being “driven by this radical 'cancel culture’ left,” insists Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio).
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But here’s the hypocrisy: Donald Trump has embraced “cancel culture” his entire life. I cannot think of another politician, or public figure, who has spent more time trying to “cancel” critics than the thin-skinned former reality TV star in the Oval Office. Over the years, Trump has called for the boycott of leading U.S. brands such as Macy’s, Apple, and Harley Davidson, among others, because they displeased him in one way or another. He forces those around him into nondisclosure agreements and then threatens them with legal action if they dare speak out against him — including his own niece Mary, whose forthcoming tell-all book the president is desperately trying to … cancel.

This approach has only been amplified since he came into office, a period that has found him publicly and repeatedly trying to cancel both social media companies (“We will strongly regulate, or close them down”) and network news channels (“Challenge their license?”) while calling for prominent journalists who have upset him, such as Chuck Todd and Jemele Hill, to be fired. (In private, Trump has gone much further: according to his former national security adviser, the president wants some journalists to be “executed.”)

Then there is Colin Kaepernick. The president not only supported the benching of the former San Francisco 49ers quarterback but insisted NFL owners sack other players, too. “Wouldn’t you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, ‘Get that son of a ***** off the field right now. Out! He’s fired. He’s fired!’” he ranted at a rally in September 2017.

Trump’s interest in silencing his opponents — the very thing cancel culture’s conservative critics decry — is more pronounced when he’s targeting members of his own political party. Take Mitt Romney. The sole Republican senator to vote for impeachment in February faced an intense backlash from both the president and his ideological allies — especially after Trump labeled him an “ass” and a “fool” and called for Romney’s impeachment. The president’s son demanded the Utah senator be expelled from the GOP. The chairman of the Conservative Political Action Conference said he could not even guarantee Romney’s “physical safety” should the senator decide to attend the organization’s annual event. In short, at Trump’s behest, the Republican Party canceled their own former presidential candidate.

Romney, of course, wasn’t the first independent-minded GOP member of Congress to endure such mistreatment at the hands of the Canceler-in-Chief. Remember Jeff Flake? Canceled. Bob Corker? Canceled. Justin Amash? Canceled. Mark Sanford? Canceled.
Ouch
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:47 PM   #390
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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Originally Posted by EADGBE View Post
You may agree with them, but my point in that post you quote is that the mob is imposing their views on others by force. Were you camped outside City Hall for the past 2 weeks dictating terms? Why is this subset of the population entitled to have their political views pushed upon everyone else who may or may not agree?

Also, below is what I am referring to, not **** like overtly racist white nationalist garbage. Saying all Conservative viewpoints are stupid/racist garbage is dismissive and intellectually lazy.

San Diego PD shoot a man who pulls on gun on them.

https://www.10news.com/news/local-ne...town-san-diego

A protester mob forms to demand "justice" for him because the police shouldn't have shot him, but subdued him by other means (lol?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvqR7en9S30

At around the 4:45 timestamp a man argues with protestors and sides with the police saying what the protestors are doing is not right, etc. As soon as the man walks out of sight of the police line, he is assaulted by the mob while protestors scream "stop recording" (the irony there is palpable). It's just pure idiocy at its finest. There is just zero room given for nuance now. You either agree with the mob that ALL those experiencing force at the hands of police are victims, or you are a racist who's views are invalid.
They wouldn't feel the need to dictate terms if they hadn't been ignored for basically their entire lives

Look, there is a rise of problematic thinking, yes. But something caused that

They didn't just arrive there on their own volition. You think cancel culture or mob rule came to be because people suddenly got mad? No. Social media has expanded reach and these protests and all that comes with it is a reflection of that. Ferguson is the same reflection, social media was not as prevalent. The LA riots only happened in LA for a reason...

As for arrogance, well, yeah, perhaps the Hillary Clintonesque hubris or coastal elitism is problematic, but it kind of pales in comparison to, oh, I dunno, Stephen Miller and the vast majority of conservative blocs of voters who talk about other people like they're second class citizens and/or deserve to die no matter what the rap sheet says, if it exists at all...

Arrogance is continuing to argue in bad faith, indifferently and insufferably, endlessly. How is it possible to have an honest conversation with President Trump? You can't. It is not possible to have one when the other side is either monumentally ignorant or deliberately obtuse at every turn. There is no conversation at that point. That is what cancel culture is borne out of. I've said before it's a mixed bag imo, but if you don't want cancel culture, then stop pretending the POTUS belongs in office despite the accusations of what, a few dozen women? If one is going to defend the indefensible, then they're just gonna get a big **** you. Ain't nobody got time for that...
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:24 PM   #391
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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Old 07-01-2020, 02:28 PM   #392
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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They wouldn't feel the need to dictate terms if they hadn't been ignored for basically their entire lives

Look, there is a rise of problematic thinking, yes. But something caused that

They didn't just arrive there on their own volition. You think cancel culture or mob rule came to be because people suddenly got mad? No. Social media has expanded reach and these protests and all that comes with it is a reflection of that. Ferguson is the same reflection, social media was not as prevalent. The LA riots only happened in LA for a reason...
I don't disagree with any of this. However, I still don't feel that gives people a right to impose their political views on others by force. There is a definite sense from the cities that they need to placate these people or they will just continue to create chaos on the streets. The City authorities can't impose order by force, or they will be viewed as the 'fascists' endorsing Trump and a police state. Cities are in a tough spot here and the mob is taking advantage.

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Originally Posted by TeflonDawg View Post
As for arrogance, well, yeah, perhaps the Hillary Clintonesque hubris or coastal elitism is problematic, but it kind of pales in comparison to, oh, I dunno, Stephen Miller and the vast majority of conservative blocs of voters who talk about other people like they're second class citizens and/or deserve to die no matter what the rap sheet says, if it exists at all...

Arrogance is continuing to argue in bad faith, indifferently and insufferably, endlessly. How is it possible to have an honest conversation with President Trump? You can't. It is not possible to have one when the other side is either monumentally ignorant or deliberately obtuse at every turn. There is no conversation at that point. That is what cancel culture is borne out of. I've said before it's a mixed bag imo, but if you don't want cancel culture, then stop pretending the POTUS belongs in office despite the accusations of what, a few dozen women? If one is going to defend the indefensible, then they're just gonna get a big **** you. Ain't nobody got time for that...
Again, I don't disagree with most of this. However 'the right did it first' doesn't justify the very same obnoxious behavior, in my opinion. I would probably agree with the claim that the 'vast majority' of GOP politicians know better and are being disingenuous on many issues, mostly as a consequence of their special interest pandering, however I would stop short of agreeing that the vast majority of GOP voters are the same.

The average GOP voter is lower education and a low information voter. They also like to get their news from conservative media outlets, so their views on the world will be vastly different than yours. That doesn't mean necessarily that they are arguing in bad faith or being deliberately obtuse in order to hide their racism.
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Old 07-01-2020, 03:29 PM   #393
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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barely.. although it did show an uplifting trend that the urban areas of Oklahoma are beginning to have the numbers to out vote the rural backwards ass racists living in rural oklahoma. it passed in like 7 of the 77 counties and still had the votes to succeed.
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Old 07-01-2020, 05:10 PM   #394
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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Old 07-02-2020, 09:06 PM   #395
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

WOKE MOB CANCEL CULTURE IS oh wait

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Old 07-02-2020, 10:01 PM   #396
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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“Because this is so very much a TWA (3rd wave antiracism) moment and because its perspective has been creeping into the fabric of educated American society over several years, we are becoming desensitized to how ancillary to civic progress is this peculiar, furious, and fantastical indoctrination.

We seek sociopolitical change, yet we find on the vanguards a contingent who have founded a new religion. They insist hotly that they "really are right," because racism is bad, isn't it?

Indeed it is. But it is also bad for increasing numbers of Americans, out of fear for their social acceptance in wider society, pretend to subscribe to the semi-coherent tenets of an anti-empirical faith feigning higher wisdom with big words and manipulative phraseology.

They see themselves as the heirs of bygone heroes who would actually have been sickened by them. Progressive Americans' task is not to learn charismatic but purposeless self-flagellational routines, but to fight injustices with sense and logic. Only TWA adherents think the two are the same.“


https://reason.com/2020/06/29/kneeli...ocial-justice/
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I did not know much about this guy until you shared that, and turns out, I say things he presented years ago.

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Old 07-02-2020, 10:48 PM   #397
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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I said the attitude he just displayed is what I am referring to coming out of the left these days, re the stifling of civil discourse:



Also, as long as people are arguing in good faith, I wouldn't classify them as trolls. There is a certain condescension in calling people stupid (deserved or not) for holding opinions contrary to yourself, which is what I was referring to by the "arrogance" coming out of the left these days.
the only thing the right has is to whine about being called racism. no matter that I almost never go for that. its just the go-to move of the snowflake right. wah wah I am being canceled.

and it would take a world champion gymnast to contort my statement to fit that.

and thats why there is no reason to discuss anything with you people. you are scumbags that will do anything to hurt others. there is only one way to deal with people like you and its full on defeat. its not discussion. its not bipartisan solutions. its using the political tools available to stop your agenda of oppression and exploitation and hate.

and remember, its your side that is using violence to lock people up for years, to beat and kill people, to steal resources at every opportunity.

being criticized for bootlicking on the internet is not being canceled. getting locked up for 10 years for throwing a water bottle is. getting choked to death is. getting injected with ketamine and overdosed is.

heres the thing tho. you dont have to support that stuff. you can decide not to be a bootlicking pos. its really not hard.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:15 PM   #398
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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the only thing the right has is to whine about being called racism. no matter that I almost never go for that. its just the go-to move of the snowflake right. wah wah I am being canceled.
Besides complaining about being called racist, there's also the go-to move of inventing how many things they're not allowed to say anymore

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Old 07-03-2020, 01:06 AM   #399
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

The American Way--Bend/break the rules like crazy as much as you can. And don't get caught. Sprinkle in a little trash talk about the other rule breakers to make it look good
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Old 07-03-2020, 05:05 AM   #400
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Re: I'm left but the new left going way too far out

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and thats why there is no reason to discuss anything with you people. you are scumbags that will do anything to hurt others. there is only one way to deal with people like you and its full on defeat. its not discussion. its not bipartisan solutions. its using the political tools available to stop your agenda of oppression and exploitation and hate.
Sounds like something straight out of Herbert Marcuse's theory of Repressive Tolerance.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-...sive-tolerance

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This “liberating tolerance” would involve “the withdrawal of toleration of speech and assembly from groups and movements” on the Right, and the aggressively partisan promotion of speech, groups, and progressive movements on the Left
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His argument that a vanguard of students, teachers, and intellectuals had a special role to play, especially within educational institutions, of “break[ing] the concreteness of oppression” by suppressing ideas and actions (and language) objectively determined to be “regressive” and “inhumane” with the object of freeing students from “the prevailing indoctrination” and reestablishing the conditions of equality conducive to true freedom, played a major role in reshaping the mission and practices of the contemporary “politically correct” multiculturalist college and university
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