I wouldn't frame it this way. I would say as a group men are rational actors, and when incentive structures aren't aligned for them to act "manly", they aren't going to.

Everyone in this thread needs to man up.

It seems a safe place for victims to self-identify.

I, for one, would like to hear OP's proposed remedy to this societal ill.

Chickz should put out more?

Here is one person's idea.

https://unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-...0each%20Sunday.

Why I am now a Christian
Atheism can't equip us for civilisational war

I agree with that. It makes intuitive sense, anyway. But Marx and Engels argued the same thing in terms of economic status and all that entails. And on the other side, some don't believe capitalism can work sans something like the Protestant ethos, especially the parts about keeping envy in the benign realm more like inspiration to attain to, rather than I want what they have, literally.

Erm, respectfully, I might give that a skip based on the title alone.

It may make sense if, like the author, you were brought up in a hot place in the grip of the Muslim Brotherhood. Nothing to do with the subject under discussion, though.

Well, being radicalized into the Muslim Brotherhood, and then deradicalized is why she has the opinions of political Islam she has. I have read her before and it is notable that despite the fact she grew up in Kenya, where there were no Jews, perhaps the strongest component of her indoctrination was Jew hatred. And this is a global issue where tens if not hundreds of millions of radicalized Muslims (including in the West) grow up being spoon fed this hate.

Regardless, embracing Christianity has more to do with how to go about giving the Western world meaning and something to fight for (in her opinion).

Do you think this has anything to do with societal oppression? I think it's just because in general men are bigger, stronger, and more prone to violence than are women.
IMO that is simply based on biology and could never be changed (other than possibly through thousands of years of evolution).

Yup this. On a date with one man and one women, obviously the man is going to be much safer than the woman. But that is because women are much less violent than men, not because men target them. In fact the opposite is true. Men are far more likely to be victims of violence than women.

What does that have to do with the OP?

Vahz....

PW, you seem like a kid that is trying to figure a lot of stuff out in a confusing stage of your life. I don't want to make another long post about that right now, but to get right to the point: you have a lot of very negative and false beliefs. Your frame of mind is the result of the frustration of a young guy that feels like most things are out of reach or out of your control. Trust me when I tell you that I know exactly what is going through your mind. The solution sounds deceptively simple: it is to improve yourself.

Based on your recent posts, you seem to be going down a rabbit hole where your thinking can get self-destructive. If you want to talk things out with people, I suggest you link to a thread you create HERE rather than engage with incel types on Reddit or whatever it is that you are doing. At least on this site, the vast majority of people are older than you and have absolutely been through the same things you have been through.

Edited to add: I just saw in the other thread that you are 37. Clearly I have you pegged completely wrong. You can go ahead and ignore my posts.

Becoming a Christian in order to engage in a race war, just like Jesus would have wanted.

Truly I am doing my duty as a feminist to try and provide equality for the sexes

Is that what you are doing? It looks to me like you are just engaging in good old-fashioned trolling.

I don’t understand how it’s trolling if you look at how men are treated by women in society wrt relationships and dating. Also in the courts. And in the militaries. If women were forced to fight wars the same as men, we wouldn’t have wars.

I’m doing this for everybody. That’s the benefit of feminism. We all win

I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt here. It feels like this comment is coming from a place of frustration that many men share.

These are all things I think are true. I have heard many claim feminism is about equality but I have not seen feminism talk about any of these issues, except for maybe some offhand comment about the patriarchy or toxic masculinity. It feels dishonest and borderline gaslighting.

I think the more honest take is feminism is about fixing the inequalities women face. To fix the problems men face, men need their own positive movement. Otherwise the Andrew Tate's and other right wing grifters will swallow them up.

I am cautiously optimistic. I feel like small scale groups talking about it, whether it is message boards like this or slack/discord groups is the best way. In large groups like reddit, the few toxic extremists tend to poison the discussion.

This is such a bizarre article. The author attaches no weight to grappling with reason-based answers to the actual questions that distinguish Christians from non-Christians or atheists.

To a large degree there's some truth to the idea that the dating game is stacked, at least against certain subsections of men. And on top of the asymmetry in violence inflicted on men, and men having to do a range of jobs that women don't tend to do, I have a lot of sympathy for the worldview that men are oppressed.

But it would be cherrypicking just to look at that all these facts and ignore the various ways that a lot of women are oppressed. Some women are even oppressed not by men nor patriarchy nor toxic masculinity but by toxic femininity. The sort of 'girlboss' / white feminist attitudes with a through line to gender essentialism. A reaction to patriarchy that says 'we'll be the oppressors for once', that leads to women treating relatively low-value men (I count as one of these according to society and have been at the ends of some pretty selfish/awful behaviour by otherwise 'nice' women'). This as opposed to the phrase I heard recently about feminism - 'just be grateful we're only looking for equality, not revenge'.

Some of these things are quantifiable. The pay gap, the violence inflicted on women by men vs that inflicted on men by women, and so on. It's not easy to compare one basket of oppression goods with another, though. The main culprit, though, is still toxic masculinity. And we shouldn't need to be particularly careful with that phrase, because only someone inculcated with the belief that they are in fact victims of an unjust system (ok, yeah, we all are, but we're also beneficiaries) would understand that phrase to imply that all men are or all masculinity is toxic. It's very clearly not saying that. It's saying that some, enough men are toxic (and even of those of us that aren't ourselves, we don't call it out in our friends or family as much as we could / should), and that that causes problems for everyone else in society.

I would be interested if you expand your thoughts on this point.

Some pretty bizarre takes ITT. The sexes aren't "equal" if "equal" means "the same". There are biological and genetic differences which cause the sexes (on average) to have different attributes, including physical attributes like strength, and cognitive/emotional attributes like drives, motivations, or predisposition to the violent resolution of conflict. This is pretty basic, uncontroversial stuff, no?