You seem to be missing the point. You want to discuss solutions like rational people, while ignoring the elephant in the room that the guy you want to put/keep in charge calls the whole problem a "hoax" like an irrational person (and is rolling back environmental regulations by executive order). Apparently this is just something we should ignore?

Fair enough. I don't know how grants and other incentives should be allocated. I trust that there are people who know more about these things than I do can come to a reasonable allocation. I don't see this is a valid argument that there should therefore be no grants or other incentives at all.

It's an analogy. Do you think subsidies in other areas, e.g. farming are desirable?

Patriot Act says hi

For our entire lives the right has been the--hey if you got nothing to hide what's the big deal? Guilt is often assumed when asserting privacy rights. They have been more than happy to dig into our lives and bedrooms etc. Sometimes the -rhetoric- suggests otherwise but that's just mostly talk.

If the elite didn't want cameras everywhere it sure looks like they're losing that battle And cameras are just one aspect--we've got license plate readers etc all over the place just quietly logging info.

There's a difference between eliding words in spoken text, and speaking in one big run-on sentence which meanders all over the place. The latter is a very reliable indicator of diminished mental capacity.

We only have his word for his successes as a businessman, but we have a lot of public information about his bankruptcies and lawsuits to speak to his failures. He also inherited £400m from his father, pretty hard to **** up from there really. Nevertheless, I will grant you that he is an effective con artist, no argument there.

Anyway, is your position that he is really smart, or that you don't care if he's a moron, providing you like his policies? Because you seem to be alternating between the two.

In case you accuse me of going off topic or TDS again, I am basically arguing against this part of your OP. My contention is that a vote for Trump is more dangerous that a vote against Trump, and my posts speak to some of my reasons for taking this position (although not an exhaustive list so far).

Also - in response to this - if the public doesn't want China to cripple the US economy, why don't they just stop buying stuff made in China? See, we don't need Trump or Biden, the spending public already knows what it's doing.

My feeling is Trump is rallying his base, which is a lot of older conservatives who really don't believe climate change is as much of a threat as leftists say. And I would put myself in that camp (not that old though). I do think we should do something about it. I don't agree with AOC's plan. I do think we should be responsible. I don't think a president's lip service is what matters most. Congress, the senate, and the deep state have far more influence than the president. I have failed to see any sort of convincing evidence that within my lifetime the world will collapse due to the climate. And, even if the US does its part, China won't do its part. So China is still the bigger issue, if even only for that.

Federal grants and things are okay, but as a taxpayer I'm not for them. I believe governments are radically inefficient at allocating wealth. That's because money flows naturally into the best innovations, but governments make those decisions based on factors other than what consumers would. They make decisions on things like minority ownership, or based on croney relationships. I'm generally for small government in these matters. The Elon Musks of the world get their fair share, and I'm not worried they won't get funded.

I haven't thought much about farm aid, but generally I'm against subsidies. They're the reason student loans cripple people now, why tuition skyrocketed, why rent is so imbalanced in LA and NY. So I'd say I'm probably against farm subsidies as they just create imbalances. However, I understand the protectionist idea of Trump that we should keep manufacturing in the USA but ONLY because of the existential threat of societies like China who have a radically opposed worldview to us. If China were a democracy, who traded under the world's rules, and didn't steal IP, I would be against these subsidies. But, given that the world isn't on a level playing field, we don't want to be dependent on anyone else for our food supplies. And I don't know the facts, but maybe American farmers need those subsidies to continue farming.

How come all those conservative CEOs haven't bailed on China and come back to the US? Weird Surely a CEO can't be a rino right? That's practically their ultimate ideal form--the Boss I was told there would be a stampede. They basically have one note--rile up some good old rightwing populism among the regs wave their hands around a lot to make it look like they're doing something. Then distract em with a bunch of other stuff while they keep printing money.

That's a good point but I believe that China has had excellent PR on their side. Trump is fighting that and it's one reason I will vote for him. People aren't educated or aware on just what the CCP is. Most people I know just don't get it.

I never said I was against climate change education. I'm pro education as long as it's geared towards solutions.

My feeling is that Biden is rallying his base, which is a lot of younger liberals who really don't believe China is as much of a threat as right wingers say. And I would put myself in that camp (not that young though). I do think we should do something about it. I do think we should be responsible. I don't think a president's lip service is what matters most. Congress, the senate, and the deep state have far more influence than the president. I have failed to see any sort of convincing evidence that within my lifetime the US economy will collapse due to China.

----------------------------------

I think I've made my point.

I don't really know enough about the topic to comment on these positions, but they seem facially reasonable to me.

Well name some names and show some sources. But you realize CEOs aren't the boss, right? They have bosses.

But even if you can point to some actual CEOs doing this, it wouldn't surprise me. As a conservative I adhere to the tragic vision of life - people are selfish. They take profits when they can, it goes for me and everyone I know. It's the main reason we have a limited government in America and why we need to make sure we never end up like China. But I am ethically opposed to any investment in China. The NBA should be ashamed of itself. I sold all my China stock and think all Americans should do the same until their human rights are up to par.

Standing up to China has been a quiet bipartisan, even global, issue simmering for almost twenty years, especially since Uncle Eleven came to power.

But nobody in foreign services (you can look up articles about professional diplomats and defense officials limited Trump's options because they basically think Trump and his cronies are idiots) thinks we're standing up in a smart way that will lead to better outcomes for America and its allies.

There is no credibility. People think Trump's main motivations in banning TikTok and WeChat now are to divert attention from his handling of Covid-19 and to demonize China to focus more of the Covid-19 blame on China.

They are right.

Lol well you've created an analogous line of reasoning. Kind of a critique of pure reason thing. But this isn't a priori argumentation here as much as I like philosophy class.

The next step is learning more about these issues. I haven't seen evidence to alarm me that the world is going to end from the climate, just that we need more resources. And I have stated many times that there's no easy solution. We can't just all stop using gasoline and hope China does also. Awareness of the issue isn't a solution.

However there is an actual plan and goal towards dealing with China. We have to be aware, then plan to stop their influence. Reagan dealt with USSR. But they had bad PR on the world stage. China is buying its way into hollywood. They are making movies now. I know I seem like chicken little or Al Gore, but things are getting hectic. So it doesn't bother you at all that the Harvard chair of chemistry was being paid 50k a month by the CCP to work with the Wuhan University of Technology back in November 2019?

I feel that westerners are falling way behind, we're spoiled, we haven't had much real competition in a long time. We don't save money, we don't work hard. The Chinese work twice as hard, they're smart, and their government is ruthless... I don't want to have to speak Mandarin one day. That's all I'll say on the matter.

It's more commentary that your reasoning on one issue (it would be dangerous to not vote for Trump) is completely contradicted by your reasoning on the other (the president doesn't matter that much anyway - it's all congress, deep state, etc.) I am sure you can see how these positions are incompatible.

The Chinese also value education, something that the right wing in the US seeks to demonise, eviscerate, or subvert. Don't underestimate the importance and benefits of a society-wide elevation of education and reasoning over ignorance and mystical beliefs.

I would urge you to read the articles I linked for you in the science thread as a first step to learning more about climate change, as I suspect that the reason that you are not as alarmed as you should be is simply that you are not knowledgeable on the subject. In return, I promise to read the article of your choice about the dangers of China. None of these are that long, except the Wikipedia page, but feel free to skim that.

Seems a bit alarmist. Why would you need to learn to speak Mandarin? Are they going to invade the US after crippling the economy and enslave all the Americans? They're not Nazis, dude.

Why are little children in half the world spending all their free time learning English today, did England enslave the whole world?

I'm incredibly sick of this characterization that's completely untrue. The godfather of the conservative movement in America is a man named Thomas Sowell. He's one of the most brilliant men I've every read/listened to and he's a Stanford economist and prolific writer who informs many conservatives. The state of the education system is so bad in the US precisely because it's run by the teacher's union, which is in bed with the democratic party. They're the ones who fight against education by blocking charter schools, probably the only way out for many minority students. That's one of the sickest and inhumane policies on the planet. I urge you to research that a bit.

Pretty much dude. You might have heard of the British Empire, it stretched far and wide. Countries tend to curb their imperialistic tendencies these days a bit more.

You're confusing the current GOP which is the culmination of 40 years of pandering to ignorance and bigotry, with some ideological movement which spawned it but which it no longer resembles. Most remaining principled conservatives finally denounced the GOP after Trump was elected.

Remind me who wants to teach creationism alongside science in schools, would that be the leftists?

Lol well you know what I mean. It's not about enslavement, just influence. People study (American) English for the opportunities.

There's dogmatism on both sides. The fact is charter schools are the only way out for inner city youths and the democratic party actively fights against them. It's a crime. And those are the people they're supposed to help.

I don't know anything about charter schools, so can't comment. I do know that it's the right wingers who constantly undermine science with their YEC bullshit and rail against colleges and by extension higher education as "liberal breeding grounds", and set up institutions like LolLibery U. So I'm not buying your both sides argument.

Perhaps if 40%+ of the adult US population didn't believe in a pixie in the sky who created the world 5000 years ago (and who mostly happen to be conservatives) the state of understanding of science and related subjects in the US wouldn't be so abysmal, and things like mask wearing in a pandemic wouldn't become politicised. The fact you not only deny this but blame it on left wingers speaks volumes to your partisanship, and your own inability to apply logic and facts when they lead to uncomfortable conclusions.

There's been no great stampede of companies back to the US. Some have shifted to other places etc. We're near end of term--it was originally billed as we wouldn't be able to believe how insane it would be just do this this and that and boom a deluge--meanwhile your asking for examples that haven't lol. There should be so many contrary examples we can't take a step w/o running into one instead of having to go hunting at all

About as simply as conservative vs liberal can be broken down imo is:

Conservatives/Right--want(to preserve) good things for a select group

Everybody else/Left--want good things for everyone

Conservatives would have us believe great things reside on the other side of everyone being as selfish as possible. Even kindergarteners can spot the bs on that 1 it's so obvious. How you know conservative messaging is 'working' on its target audience We can go over to another conservative thread in the forum and hear an essentially completely opposite take on things that both believe thoroughly. In here it's basically the left puts other countries over US because they're evil! Over there it's The greedy left doesn't want to share and make the world better because they're evil lol

This is you: "I don't know anything about this topic and I won't even research it. But your side is wrong based on the limited info I know, and you must be partisan and uncomfortable with the truth"

So for you Marxist economics > Smith economics because kindergarten