Then how can BlackRock kick those people out? They paid their bills. Unemployment insurance turned to income replacement. People who wanted to pay their rent paid their rent.

Rocco, I'd **** him up for that. Just to show him that your target demographic is no way older than 45.

This will vary with market, but its obviously easier to save in the UK market as a home owner given that rents and mortgage for the same property are about the same, indeed often cheaper for mortgage depending on circumstance.

Therefore renters must save from disposable income, which of course is an option for the home owner too.

True, I'm thrice bankrupt. That was for taxes, but I guess it's all the same thing, though. The taxes I didn't pay have obviously deprived someone, somewhere, of something.

You make a very good point, and one that many, many people miss. Money is a medium of exchange. It doesn't just arise from nowhere. It's not exactly a zero sum game, but in the short term, it's not far from it.

We have (had?) a poster here Dominic who ****ed Jenna Jameson iirc. Not a politics guy tho I don’t think.

I think he is still active in OOT or maybe some of the other subs too. Yeah, he was a porn director.

In the interests of correctness, he didn't just **** Jenna Jameson alone. He had a threesome with Jenna and another porn star, and he did describe it in detail (well, as much detail as 2-3 sentences can confer) in his AMA. I think he said it was at some party or something, and like a "NBD" kinda thing.

It does depend on a ton of variables but many believe, wrongly that it is black and white and home owning is always good and renting is always 'throwing away money', which is not accurate.

Even when top line costs (mortgage v rent) are similar or same to live in the same home, what a lot of renters do not do, is take the equivalent spend that homeowners must do (repairs, maintenance, Property tax, etc) and are forced to spend and the renter should take the equivalent amount of spend over 20 years and put it in the equity markets and see how that models out for 'total asset value' versus homeownership.

This is Canada but here are some articles that model some of that out with so many of the factors people do not consider.

Why it's better to rent than buy

Would you be better off financially renting or buying a home?



How a 30-something couple got rich and retired by not joining home ownership 'cult'

I have has so many people say to me 'why are you renting ...you are just throwing money away' over the years who I have offered to share these articles with and most people do not even want to read them to reconsider their view.

it is so ingrained, by many, especially the Real Estate industry that renting is a waste of money that is now generational ingrained thought that should not be questioned!

I mean how much did your equity in those articles go up the last year tho

I’m being a dick and kidding but the portion of your rent that goes to those expenses you outlined incurred by your landlord doesn’t go in the equity markets like you posited? It goes away. You pay for that **** man it’s factored in to your rent.

I rent because I am a degenerate who lives paycheck to paycheck. Admittedly, they are decent paychecks, but still.

Renting (as with most transactions where one party offers something of value and the other party offers a consideration) is "action offered and accepted." I have no idea how, of all places, on a poker forum, otherwise intelligent people do not get that.

Yea no one is looking down on you for it like you say it’s perfectly acceptable. but that guy is saying it’s smart personal finance to rent and that needs a bit more explanation.

Renting does make sense in some inflated markets but owning still makes sense in most of US.

That’s funny shuffle and I believe it. And the evidence of the success of the information campaign is itt.

Shuffle likes to read the bible and believe things that are written there, so his credibility is basically about zero.

Other than that, nice guy.

Rent includes maintenance. Homeowners have to have money on hand for repairs, which can be significant.

Renters trade freedom from responsibility for the equity gained by owners. Transaction costs in real estate are also very high compared to say a rental application.

No, the illuminati are not trying to bamboozle you into thinking renting is superior, and there are clear and obvious drawbacks to ownership for many people.

Despite what Trolly thinks, landlords can also get much better deals on things by effectively buying in bulk. The HVAC guy is far more likely to come to one of my properties on a Friday night on short notice than to Johnny Q. Homeowner who thinks it's trivial to find a heating guy at any hour of the day. Believe it or not, trade contractors who are good at their jobs generally aren't sitting around in their trucks waiting for the phone to ring.

If it's a large enough company, they might even have all trades in house.

Assuming you have financial capacity to rent or own, the choice of whether to rent or own is indeed a math question. The answer to the math question depends on a lot of factors. One of the factors is the market, but there are plenty of other factors. For example, how long you intend to stay in your residence is a huge factor. Transaction costs can have a material impact.

Depends if you're single or married with a family, etc.

There's certainly a lot better things to invest in than a house.

I think these are directed at me and the linked articles i posted address these better than i can so I suggest reading them and quoting any aspect you may dispute.

Basically a key aspect of what they say is when most people say you can own for the same amount you rent they are only comparing the mortgage payments to the rent payments.

Additionally anyone who chooses to buy has all sorts of other costs over the homeownership period until the mortgage is retired such as property taxes, maintenance, repairs, etc.

So the argument is that if a renter thinking of buying instead took that same down payment money he would have to put down, and added to that monthly an equivalent to the extra home owning expenses the renter will be saving, and you look at that investment portfolio versus the Home Asset, they can be comparable.

The problem is that few renters apply the discipline without that forced savings mechanism and instead spend that extra money.

Never thought I'd be squarely on Inso0's side of an argument, but, basically, this.

I will add risk tolerance and income stability as some of the biggest factors people don't talk about enough.

Yep. Those are legit factors as well.

It should be obvious but having lived through a high inflation period I can assure you that poor people are the most concerned when everytime they do the weekly shop they're very worried it will have gone up in price.

The rest of us can cope.

Home mortgage is also one of the very few ways that people who don't own businesses can relatively safely invest with a lot of leverage. 5% annual return (rent saved + appreciation - cost of maintenance - interest exp + tax shield on int exp - other expenses on house) on a 20% downpayment is 25% annual return on equity, way higher than most investments available to most people.

Coupled with enforced investment discipline (most people can't really panic sell their homes), the high RoE often is the best way for many people to build wealth.

I'm actually in a situation where renting makes more sense (one apartment I thought about buying in Flushing, NY was renting for ~2400, cost ~800k, and there was a $1200/month amenities fee to the building. It's cash flow negative before the property tax abatement ends with 20% downpayment. Just no. Situation with a lot of higher end apartments in NYC area is similar, though most not as bad.)

I moved to Edmonton in 2012 when I started a new business with some partners in that city.

I had never visited the city or Province prior.

Immediately I was given a ton of flack for renting in the expensive downtown condo market (walking distance to the office) instead of buying by those who by default say 'renting is just throwing away money'. I heard it almost every year from different people.

By 2014 the business was solid but despite my confidence it would endure and my thoughts about buying, I instead resisted and kept renting. The reason being I was pretty sure I would not stay in Edmonton if we sold the business and I thought there was a realistic chance that could happen within 10 years and for any home purchase I want to know I have at least a 10 year window where I can own and live in it before I would want or need to sell it.

And my decision proved prescient and wise (in hindsight) as the condo's i viewed for a potential purchase in 2014 were priced at the top of then a booming condo market and suffered a 33% drop when Oil prices plummeted and the Province went in to recessionary pressures that they have yet to emerge from. And we sold the company in 2019, just as Wuhan and Italy were engaging the pandemic.

Subsequent to my 2014 decision rental rates dropped yearly and i ended up renting from 2 different young single female owners, who were trapped with their mortgages well under water and thus no ability to sell without taking on large personal loans to carry the balance of their mortgages who instead then had to rent the places out and subsidize the people renting for them, as they could not get enough rent to cover all costs. I was moving because I could get a better, bigger, nicer unit with each move at less rent than my current unit as prices dropped.

It was their bet on the lesser of the two bad scenarios these young landlords were caught in.

I felt so bad for my second landlord (a single mom), that despite living in her condo for my last 3 years in Edmonton, I never forced her to drop my rent in years 2 &3 even though I knew the market had moved down and I could have got the exact same type of unit in the same building for hundreds of dollars cheaper per month. I just kept paying my first year rent amount the entire time as I knew the delta meant more to her (and her infant) then it did to me with regards to monthly cash flow.

She had been convinced by her best friend, a realtor, to leverage her equity in her current home to buy in Edmonton's booming condo market as a way to build a retirement nest egg and now all of her equity in both homes is cannibalized and gone and she was taking money from her paycheque to cover some of my costs to live in her unit.

I hope that over a 20 year period (if she can hold on) it will all work out for her but the market has not really recaptured much of that 33% loss from 2014 as of yet.

And yet there are so many people who just repeat versions of 'you never lose on real estate' that simply is not true if you get buy at peak market and find you have to sell in a down market and you have not had enough time to build enough equity to bridge that gap.

Had i purchased in 2014 the condo I looked would still be ~$150k under water by the time I moved to Vancouver in mid 2020. It may have forced me to instead stay and live in Edmonton while waiting for the market to recover or sell at a loss or try to be a distant landlord with all the challenges that entails.

So while ownership in most instances is best, I think the first key consideration is your time horizon. You need to know that you can happily live in that home for at least 10 yeas, if you have to before selling as anything that might reasonably trigger you to do so prior to that, when you cannot control the timing, might find you selling in to a down market with not enough equity in the home to cover the losses.

My post above is why I don't like seeing people scoff at and mock the plight of landlords as if as a group they are all just greedy people feeding off the suffering and vulnerability of others.

So many of them are single women (or families) who utilized all the equity in their principle residence to leverage it and try to build a retirement nest egg while providing a good and needed service to many people who, for whatever reasons, want or need to rent and not buy.

If they lose their rental property many risk losing their principle residence as well.