Wanting something and being cool with it are not the same thing. I don't want it to snow today, but I'd be cool with it.

You rewriting my history on this only works on other people. I have the benefit of being the person who holds the opinion you're trying to misrepresent.

Would you be willing to spend more in taxes if it meant these kids (and society) had better outcomes than they'd get from a purely Gny. Sgt. Hartman approach?

Hartman was a really effective.

Poor school districts need good men like him.

JFC, are you even trying right now ?

His whole shtick is that there are problems in the world and we're not experienced enough to comprehend them like he can.

But I'm getting the impression that his wife is a teacher which will amuse the hell out of me if true.

Railing against the evils of government while enjoying that sweet health care plan and pension is a classic entitlement mentality. I've seen it more than a few times.
It's yet another argument against the idea that we live in a meritocracy of any sort.

Funny you think escaping generational systemic poverty to a better outcome in later life, is a tougher road than rebuilding as a displaced people due to war. I am not sure the disparity you assume exists when it comes to who digs out of their respective holes.

What is clear is you think it is trivially easy for inner city kids to escape (just behave 6 hours a day) to become the next Oprah, or success story, and thus why you have such terrible ideas and gross views when it comes to not wanting to help them.

Her leaving the relative safety of Milwaukee's public charter/choice schools for better pay and benefits in the union at MPS proper was the most expensive mistake we ever made.

15 years of teaching ended in a breakdown. I'm not going to intentionally doxx her or myself, obviously, but she had won statewide awards and was cited in books on urban education from her work in the choice programs. She's the most empathetic woman you'll ever meet. Opposites attract, as they say.

Think what you want about me, but she's a literal angel, and her desire to make a difference for those kids landed far too heavily on her heart and reality broke her.

She's currently working on an application with the director of her first charter school on a new charter high school that'll focus on community service and accountability. I don't have all the details.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...ve/7166614001/

Watching Netflix in class is no different than when we figured out how to play the original GTA in computer class back in high school in the late 90s. It's "disruptive" in the sense that it's not what you're there to do. What's different at MPS is that you might have a keyboard swung at your head for stopping kids from doing it.

The eternal Demarcation Problem appears yet again!

The teachers and administrators will have to work that out. (Yes, I am punting/dodging your question.) Many disruptive kids will be in a "grey area", but others will be drop-dead obvious.

Not disputing the drop-dead thingy.

I just feel the gray will become shifting sand. whims of whomever.

Pretty much.

A lot of the disruption in schools is leveraged massively by its one size fits all all approach and the way they basically throw non academic children on the trash heap, meanwhile lots of trades can earn more than a teacher can.

In the UK system at least, there is a value system that thinks if you are not going to university you will end up flipping burgers at best, in one school I consulted at I saw one Head put this exact sentiment in a school newsletter.

They seemed completely naïve to how good tradesmen earn considerably more than minimum wage.

This is my 2cents formed when I was spent time consulting for a UK educational QUANGO.

I wasn't trying to attack your wife.

I apologize.

why dont they have classified class room in your countries ?
when i was going at school we had those.
the best students were in advance class , then there was regular class and in the last place special class (compose like 10-15 students) with trouble kids , shrug.

the concept of 10% screwing the rest 90% of the education of kids wasnt existent .....
maybe it change shrug

Oddly enough I went to a HS that was similar to that but at the time the kids who wanted to learn were put in higher level classes. Ofc I didn't want to bother with all that work so I got myself demoted. But that's not the point, I get how a teacher could be on edge in an inner city school.

But if you were fighting there was security and the police would be called.
And there were other schools they would send you to if necessary.
I really can't believe none of those mechanisms are in place anymore.

They do.

His story isn't making sense to me either and I'm from his country.

So yea just put those kids on the scrap heap.

Grantosa, 4850 N. 82nd St., had 585 students in 3-year-old kindergarten through eighth grade as of September. In recent years, well below 10% of students who took state standardized tests scored at levels considered proficient or advanced. Seventy percent or more tested at “below basic” levels or, in spring 2021, didn’t take the state test.


This isn't a failure of the school, it's a failure of society.

OK, but you’re actively telling people you want it to snow. Your whole shtick is to toss the disruptive kids into the street. It’s not an unintended consequence.

If you are going to stream kids and basically say yea whatevs just sit over there and dont interfere with the functioning of the institution, then obviously the solution is to put them in another kind of institution focused on optimal outcomes for these students specifically rather than just trying to manage them so they dont interfere.

No, it really isn't. There are thriving education systems around the world that don't need to do this.

We have programs within our own district that deal with all sorts of issues. There is a dedicated program that works with kids that are considered at risk to join gangs, while they still attend "mainstream" schools. There are learning centers and other unique programs that high school students with learning and/or behavioral challenges can attend instead of/in addition to a regular high school. One size doesn't fit all, so we try to meet the kids where they're at. That doesn't mean no one ever falls through the cracks, or that there aren't disruptive students in classes or teachers that are overwhelmed; we can always do better and are striving to do so. But we sure as hell aren't going to pack up 15% of our students and send them off to a military school. It kind of blows me away that anyone would even consider that an option in 2022.

Just to be clear, because I have grunched into this thread, when I suggest other institutions for difficult students I am in no way suggesting military school.

I know the above is not aimed at me, but just want to be clear so as to avoid complications.

And to be clear (not addressing to you specifically), I think there is room to have different classes or programs for some students, some of which I've described. As another example, in a limited number of high school courses, it can make sense to have different options. For example, in grades 10-12 we start to have some different math classes where one will be focused on the basics for life, another on trades, one that is pre-calculus for university, etc. It needs to be done thoughtfully, though; completely dividing kids at younger ages into "university" and "trades" streams can be problematic.

This is a feature of the German education system and it is indeed controversial. Kids in the lower schools are often stigmatized and ability to qualify for the schools that lead to university is biased against working class kids even when they have comparable reading ability to middle and upper class kids.

Of course, one thing speaking to the UK education system would be an end to the stigmatization of the trade route as if it somehow lesser.

Jonny completely average who does a completely average degree at a completely average University probably has less life term earnings than if he learnt a trade, at least in the average provincial town I live in miles from any metropolitan centres.

Obviously there is a higher ceiling with a degree but at the same time tradesmen I know who have leveraged into property development using their own skills/labour have made serious bank.

I know its not just about money and education for education sake is a highly valuable social outcome imo, but a lot of the stigmatization does seem to revolve around a monetary assessment of the two paths.

I was academically a high achiever so it was never much of a debate for me, but I was completely oblivious to the idea that learning a trade could actually be a legit path to the English dream.

Huh ?
Not really .
They had special class for them with different school program , more aim at Manuel jobs.
Nothing wrong with that imo .
Some just can’t be great in school , doesn’t mean we let them go , just a need to make them learn worthwhile functions in society ?

Fwiw many « Manual job » are more profitable than some college educated jobs .
It’s not letting them down at all ….

Just being pragmatic imo .
Some « do » better and other « think » better .
Both can be highly successful.

Not only that, but the trades need intelligent people as well. You won't swing a hammer forever.

We purchased a small carpentry company about 6 years ago. The owner was a line cook and a musician after high school, but got himself into an apprenticeship with the carpenters' union and after that went out on his own. He was a grinder and and he and his best friend from high school built themselves a little piece of the American dream. Long story short, we bought his company, transitioned him into just project management and sales, and now he has a $220,000 salary and all the perks that come along with being an S-tier project manager with a strong background in getting his hands dirty.

That kind of money in Milwaukee is easily the 1% and he has no college degree. As an employee and not an owner, he also doesn't have to deal with the headaches of running the underlying business any more.

Literally every single company we work with is looking for people right now, and there aren't any to be found.