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Old 04-27-2021, 10:44 AM   #701
chezlaw
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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As much as i think a workplace should fire a person for not respecting a person's gender choice i think laws dictating the speech of person and criminalizing that directly or indirectly are a place we must be very careful not to tread.

This woman's effort should fail. She does have every right to her views, and her employer has every right to say 'great, but we don't want that in our work place'.

As much as republican's conflate this with 'free speech' the actual free speech position is to let her say it (which she can) but to also allow her employer and others to say 'we chose not to associate ourselves with you'.
Profoundly disagree that this shouldn't be subject to employment law. The idea that there's some 'right to fire' is a very right wing view that would almost never never be heard in remotely left wing group. That it is a lawful firing is quite likely. It's what the tribunal very clearly found and the appeal may well uphold it.

Free speech is not really the issue here but in any case she has no right to it.
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Old 04-27-2021, 10:48 AM   #702
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

Never understood why people who supposedly support "free speech" think that everyone in society should be forced to associate with them.
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Old 04-27-2021, 10:54 AM   #703
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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If a trans woman is really a woman, why do they use the word transgender? That seems almost equally offensive.

Also, who did she actually violate? All transgender people by having that belief? This doesn't seem to be a case centered around her not using the correct pronoun as the tribunal indicated.
I wanted to stick to the process becuase otherwise, apart from anything else, I'm going to have to delve much further into the details of the tribunal case. The appeal might be more revealing as it may well analyse the tribunal judgement.

The main point is the one has come up often. The idea that employers can just sack people without being subject to tribunals and the law is horribly right wing imo. Also the idea that failure to renew contract cannot be a sacking is wrong.
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:07 AM   #704
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Never understood why people who supposedly support "free speech" think that everyone in society should be forced to associate with them.
Is this forced association?
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:16 AM   #705
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Is this forced association?
I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that businesses or individuals should not be forced to associate with people like MF, even though she may have the right to her bigoted opinions.
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:32 AM   #706
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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I wanted to stick to the process becuase otherwise, apart from anything else, I'm going to have to delve much further into the details of the tribunal case. The appeal might be more revealing as it may well analyse the tribunal judgement.

The main point is the one has come up often. The idea that employers can just sack people without being subject to tribunals and the law is horribly right wing imo. Also the idea that failure to renew contract cannot be a sacking is wrong.
Does your reasoning go beyond, it's rightwing, so it is bad?

In general I agree with cuepee that it should be legal for businesses to fire people for their political opinions. However, if we are going to ban that, I would much prefer banning it for any political opinion rather than having some government tribunal picking and choosing which political views it is okay to fire people for and which ones it is not.
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:56 AM   #707
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Profoundly disagree that this shouldn't be subject to employment law. The idea that there's some 'right to fire' is a very right wing view that would almost never never be heard in remotely left wing group. That it is a lawful firing is quite likely. It's what the tribunal very clearly found and the appeal may well uphold it.

Free speech is not really the issue here but in any case she has no right to it.
We would not to tease this out quite a bit as I may agree in part but probably not to the majority.

I agree to certain 'protected areas' and mechanisms to govern those.

That said when it goes too broadly into 'speech' that is not protected I think companies should be able to dictate and establish their culture and prefer that to some gov't bureaucrat dictating that outside areas of protection.

Again, we had so many outrageous examples of what i would call 'abuse' immediately after the Canadian Human Rights Tribunals were set up where people with political positions to push (activists) who found an often simpatico board, loaded with like minded people, ready to use State power to compel speech and behaviour and punish those with differing views.
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:27 PM   #708
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Does your reasoning go beyond, it's rightwing, so it is bad?

In general I agree with cuepee that it should be legal for businesses to fire people for their political opinions. However, if we are going to ban that, I would much prefer banning it for any political opinion rather than having some government tribunal picking and choosing which political views it is okay to fire people for and which ones it is not.
Confisued. Who to mean by "we" and what do you mean by "ban"?

Like, the government prohibit political opinion in the workplace? Or the government prohibit political opinions as a firable offense? Or something else?
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:29 PM   #709
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that businesses or individuals should not be forced to associate with people like MF, even though she may have the right to her bigoted opinions.
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:48 PM   #710
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Does your reasoning go beyond, it's rightwing, so it is bad?

In general I agree with cuepee that it should be legal for businesses to fire people for their political opinions. However, if we are going to ban that, I would much prefer banning it for any political opinion rather than having some government tribunal picking and choosing which political views it is okay to fire people for and which ones it is not.

Confisued. Who to mean by "we" and what do you mean by "ban"?

Like, the government prohibit political opinion in the workplace? Or the government prohibit political opinions as a firable offense? Or something else?
By the bolded I meant the government banning businesses from firing people for their political opinions. I'm saying if the government is going to have a rule preventing businesses from doing so, I'd rather they just make it a blanket rule about any political opinion rather than just the political opinions some government tribunal decides are not very offensive.

However, my preference is that businesses are allowed to fire people for their political opinions (even though I don't think businesses should do so).
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Old 04-27-2021, 01:04 PM   #711
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Does your reasoning go beyond, it's rightwing, so it is bad?
No that would be silly.

Power to the bosses is a generally right wing idea. In this case I dont think you would any left of center political view in Uk or Europe that supported bosses firing without recourse. You would have to go a very long way into the right wing of the tory party before anyone would oppose employment law taht protects workers to some extent from being fired - that's what makes it a horribly right wing position.

Quote:
In general I agree with cuepee that it should be legal for businesses to fire people for their political opinions. However, if we are going to ban that, I would much prefer banning it for any political opinion rather than having some government tribunal picking and choosing which political views it is okay to fire people for and which ones it is not.
Okay. I disagree as I'm prefectly fine with a truibunal supporting the firing of someone who supports prohibited far right groups etc. But not just because the boss doesn't like the view. Not all politcal views are equal in UK law - quite right too imo.
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Old 04-27-2021, 01:17 PM   #712
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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We would not to tease this out quite a bit as I may agree in part but probably not to the majority.

I agree to certain 'protected areas' and mechanisms to govern those.

That said when it goes too broadly into 'speech' that is not protected I think companies should be able to dictate and establish their culture and prefer that to some gov't bureaucrat dictating that outside areas of protection.

Again, we had so many outrageous examples of what i would call 'abuse' immediately after the Canadian Human Rights Tribunals were set up where people with political positions to push (activists) who found an often simpatico board, loaded with like minded people, ready to use State power to compel speech and behaviour and punish those with differing views.
It's partly a question of where the polical battle should be. I know nothing about the Canadian examples but if the tribunals are bad then you work to change them via legislation - that is what politics is mostly about.
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Old 04-27-2021, 01:58 PM   #713
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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No that would be silly.

Power to the bosses is a generally right wing idea. In this case I dont think you would any left of center political view in Uk or Europe that supported bosses firing without recourse. You would have to go a very long way into the right wing of the tory party before anyone would oppose employment law taht protects workers to some extent from being fired - that's what makes it a horribly right wing position.
Then why do you act like it is? You point out that this is a rightwing view - which, whatever - and stop there with your justification for your position.
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Old 04-27-2021, 02:13 PM   #714
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Then why do you act like it is? You point out that this is a rightwing view - which, whatever - and stop there with your justification for your position.
I struggle with how right wing even the more progressive group on this board is (from my perspective). I can usually take as a straightforward given that issues like protecting employees from being fired at the whim of the boss is something the left* just agree on and don't spend time debating as a principle.

*and the centre (and even much of the right).
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Old 04-27-2021, 03:07 PM   #715
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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I struggle with how right wing even the more progressive group on this board is (from my perspective). I can usually take as a straightforward given that issues like protecting employees from being fired at the whim of the boss is something the left* just agree on and don't spend time debating as a principle.

*and the centre (and even much of the right).
Okay, you should aim to have a less parochial view of politics then.
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Old 04-27-2021, 03:28 PM   #716
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Okay, you should aim to have a less parochial view of politics then.
I'll try, it's a tough adjustment in so many areas.

Although the problem usually seems to be people taking what happens in the usa as some sort of unquestionable norm or even the only possible way.
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Old 04-27-2021, 03:43 PM   #717
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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I'll try, it's a tough adjustment in so many areas.

Although the problem usually seems to be people taking what happens in the usa as some sort of unquestionable norm or even the only possible way.
Yes, it is unfortunate when people do that, and you should also try to avoid treating your own country's politics the same way when you are talking to Americans. If the only way you can defend your political views is by pointing out that in your local political culture something is the "left" view rather than the "right" view then you don't have much of an intellectual basis for what you believe.
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Old 04-27-2021, 03:59 PM   #718
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

Sure but I specifically said UK and Europe. I'm thinking other countries as well Australia etc. This stuff is the norm for the left (and centre) in liberal democracies rather than the exception. It is the usa that is odd and even then I suspect this board is odd by USA standards (perhaps not as odd as it used to be).
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Old 04-27-2021, 04:17 PM   #719
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Sure but I specifically said UK and Europe. I'm thinking other countries as well Australia etc. This stuff is the norm for the left (and centre) in liberal democracies rather than the exception. It is the usa that is odd and even then I suspect this board is odd by USA standards (perhaps not as odd as it used to be).
Okay.
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Old 04-29-2021, 01:10 PM   #720
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Does your reasoning go beyond, it's rightwing, so it is bad?

In general I agree with cuepee that it should be legal for businesses to fire people for their political opinions. However, if we are going to ban that, I would much prefer banning it for any political opinion rather than having some government tribunal picking and choosing which political views it is okay to fire people for and which ones it is not.
+1
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Old 04-29-2021, 02:04 PM   #721
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

Sometimes your political views make you unable to carry out your job properly.

- If you for example had a political views with an ideology that states that people were not equal and should not be equal before the law, you probably shouldn't be employed in the legal system.
- If you have a political view that states change must come through armed revolution or political violence, you probably shouldn't receive military training.
- If you believe modern medicine is a hoax and homeopathy is the way to go, you probably shouldn't be making healthcare decisions for anyone.

But in most cases, political views don't make you unable to carry out your job properly. So the idea that one should treat it all equally is something that looks nice on ideological paper, but that is about it.

Anyways, the solution tends to be to focus on job performance and risk, not political views. So there is zero need for a tribunal that sits around determining which political views are acceptable. Additionally (some countries) like to provide employee rights, so that you can't be fired just because your boss doesn't like your political views either.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 04-29-2021 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 05-03-2021, 01:18 PM   #722
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Old 05-03-2021, 01:42 PM   #723
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

They already do the spying, it's merely the US wanting to buy in too.
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Old 05-03-2021, 01:58 PM   #724
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Re: Deplatforming (excised)

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Sometimes your political views make you unable to carry out your job properly.

- If you for example had a political views with an ideology that states that people were not equal and should not be equal before the law, you probably shouldn't be employed in the legal system.
- If you have a political view that states change must come through armed revolution or political violence, you probably shouldn't receive military training.
- If you believe modern medicine is a hoax and homeopathy is the way to go, you probably shouldn't be making healthcare decisions for anyone.

But in most cases, political views don't make you unable to carry out your job properly. So the idea that one should treat it all equally is something that looks nice on ideological paper, but that is about it.

Anyways, the solution tends to be to focus on job performance and risk, not political views. So there is zero need for a tribunal that sits around determining which political views are acceptable. Additionally (some countries) like to provide employee rights, so that you can't be fired just because your boss doesn't like your political views either.
US citizens have surprisingly few rights. No right to paid maternity leave, for example, and not much right to paid leave at all. They are also subject -- and I very much do mean 'subject' -- to at-will employment law, so they can be fired for any reason or no reason at all at any time. In non-mad countries, where people do not rend their garments and ululate and bow down before the Golden Calf of an oligarchic constitution written by and for 18th-century aristocratic slavers, this is not the case. Non-mad countries also, and not coincidentally, tend to feature proper public health provision and a certain lack of daily mass shootings.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:03 AM   #725
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