This.

Edit:
This might be the only thing that Victor, Luckbox and I all agree on.

Why does voting not matter, guys? Simple question, no really it is. I like both of you.

Speaking only for myself: The two parties are two sides of the same corrupt coin.

It's The People versus The Ruling Class, and the two major parties represent the latter.

So you believe CA would've been exactly the same over the last ~30yrs as a hardcore red state?

No.

As a rule, state governors and legislators have more "leeway" than Nationwide officeholders.

Just as mayors and city councils have more "leeway" than state legislators .

The closer a politician is to their constituents, the less influence the National Party interests have over what they do.

In short, voting more important in local elections.

I don't think mayorial elections are partisan.

So voting does matter then?

Around here in blue land a lot of the 'local' R candidates are people dispatched here by the national R party with a bankroll/and a tenuous connection to the area mostly running against longtime established families/residents.

Yes.

My agreement with Victor was with respect to federal elections, which was the context.

So we learned national level pols play a somewhat different role than state/local pols. That's a pretty big accomplishment for a bunch of grown men

We is grown ups.

Dont forget stateless americans living abroad

The corruptness of the two party system is not a good argument against universal suffrage (which does not.exist in the US)

I agree. I'm kewl with all citizens having the right to vote.

US is a sham democracy. Has more than 10 million citizens who cannot vote for its president.

not only that, the people who do vote are weighted much differently.

How is it possible americans still don't understand that puerto ricans are american citizens?
It's not like it's been a hot topic for last decade at least.
I've seen videos of americans sailing to PR and being confused they didn't have to register at the authorities.
MURICA

Sailing vids run the gamut for different types of people.

No, you most definitely don't actually believe that or you wouldn't be in here muddying the waters with this "voting doesn't matter" shtick.

If the dynamic were reversed say CA etc had far less people and the Wyomings were bursting with gingers the Rs would be losing their minds with rage. That is a guaranteed fact

Yep. And the media non-stop report it resulting in moving public opinion and the Dems would roll over

What in the world? Nothing is stopping the "elite/corporate class" from hiring Puerto Ricans right now.

lagtight,

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but the bolded is a lie that some Republicans tell themselves to justify voting for someone as abhorrent as Donald Trump. And it is a lie that some people on the far left tell themselves to justify not voting at all.

But it is empirically incorrect nonetheless.

People who BELIEVE that their vote matters should have a right to vote, even if in reality it DOESN'T matter.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

As to your other points, the common tropes along the lines of 'both sides are the same' 'all politicians are crooks', etc. are usually those regurgitated by disengaged low information voters (I am not saying that is you). The conservatives have been preying upon these sort of voters via their misinformation apparatus. So, I think it is very harmful to spread the idea that voters shouldn't educate themselves because both sides are the same.

That being said, yes our political system is ****ed and has been well and truly ****ed by Citizens United which is an utter disaster for our democracy. However, saying 'both sides are the same' fixes nothing. The 'People vs. the Elites' effect you describe is only going to get worse as the Dems have to kowtow more and more to corporate money in order to compete.

There are now multiple movements, given your posts here I believe you would support, to amend the constitution to say that Corporations are not people with all of the rights given to natural persons, and that money is not speech.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...itizens-united

https://freespeechforpeople.org/mcgovern/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Move_t...s%20United%20v.

Predictably, it is the red state Senators with their dark money who are strongly opposing the movement. A bit more topically, adding two more states would help a great deal in pushing much needed constitutional amendments such as this forward.

So maybe you should pick a side.

Like I said in another thread recently, modern democracy has the peculiar trait (historically speaking) of being one of very few systems of government where citizens are free to look for, find and openly point out flaws.

This makes it seem worse than it is. Not saying it is perfect, people being people and all. But you don't need to do much travelling in this world before you realize it is pretty decent.