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03-14-2021 , 09:19 PM
Well, the many of people who made those theories in the 70s had probably seen their fair share of white and black restaurants.
03-14-2021 , 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
I think the white race, as a social construct existed, but not "whiteness". I mean, is Chili's a white restaurant, is Churches Chicken a "black" restaurant? What characteristics and attributes makes someone white? CRT will tell you whole bunch of stuff.


I agree that person sounds like a racist, but that person is Derek Bell, and in the video he clearly indicated capitalism is built on exploitation, and he clearly was drawing a parallel between the exploited and black people, and white people as the exploiters, and while he does not explicitly state, but it's pretty clear he means "whiteness" or "white supremacy" as defined by CRT proponents (i.e. white culture prevalent in mainstream society that exploits POC's) that is irremediable. Let's test your idea that whiteness is not redeemable. Name a positive characteristic of "whiteness".

As an aside, it really does not make sense because almost all people don't benefit from this purported exploitation. We can stick with the CJS, I'm not sure how anyone other those directly involved in some aspect of the CJS benefit from sending black people to jail (i.e. earning income from the labor required to incarcerate people which has to be paid for by the middle class.
To add to this:

Quote:
Smithsonian museum apologizes for saying hard work, rational thought is ‘white culture’

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nat...244309587.html

This is what happens when you attribute positive characteristic/attributes, or positive social significance to "whiteness". It starts sounding like white supremacy. This is the problem of attaching social significance to a particular race, as we've learned over the last several centuries of doing so, it promotes racial superiority, which is the last thing we need.

However, CRT proponents have bought into this, and it will forever paint "whiteness" with negative connotations, as any positive aspects of whiteness is, and correctly attributed to white supremacy, and ultimately following the logic of CRT, that means whiteness is inferior (more than a few social conservatives have bought in, i.e. hardwork = white). Attaching positive or negative social significance to race is racism. The only logical conclusion is to destroy the social significance of race. "Whiteness" as in the paradigm they've created is irredeemable, less you embrace white supremacy.

Last edited by itshotinvegas; 03-14-2021 at 09:45 PM.
03-14-2021 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
However, CRT proponents have bought into this, and it will forever paint "whiteness" with negative connotations, as any positive aspects of whiteness is, and correctly attributed to white supremacy

.
Who exactly is saying this? Do you have examples?
03-14-2021 , 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
Who exactly is saying this? Do you have examples?

You can read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies

and the subsequent criticisms:

Quote:
Writers David Horowitz and Douglas Murray draw a distinction between whiteness studies and other analogous disciplines. Writes Horowitz, "Black studies celebrates blackness, Chicano studies celebrates Chicanos, women's studies celebrates women, and white studies attacks white people as evil."


Quote:
There is no crime that whiteness has not committed against people of colour.... We must blame whiteness for the continuing patterns today... which damage and prevent the humanity of those of us within it....We must blame whiteness for the continuing patterns today that deny the rights of those outside of whiteness and which damage and pervert the humanity of those of us within it.~ Jeff Hitchcock, co-founder and executive director of the Center for the Study of White American Culture
In other words, when it comes to studying white people, its all about racism. Racism is their identity.
03-14-2021 , 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
Seems fairly unobjectionable?

Quote:
Whiteness studies is the study of the structures that produce white privilege,[1] the examination of what whiteness is when analyzed as a race, a culture, and a source of systemic racism,[2] and the exploration of other social phenomena generated by the societal compositions, perceptions and group behaviors of white people.[3] An interdisciplinary arena of inquiry that has developed beginning in the United States from white trash studies and critical race studies, particularly since the late 20th century.[4] It is focused on what proponents[who?] describe as the cultural, historical and sociological aspects of people identified as white, and the social construction of "whiteness" as an ideology tied to social status.
What part of this do you take exception to?
03-14-2021 , 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
Seems fairly unobjectionable?



What part of this do you take exception to?
..

Quote:
Criticisms
Writers David Horowitz and Douglas Murray draw a distinction between whiteness studies and other analogous disciplines.[71] Writes Horowitz, "Black studies celebrates blackness, Chicano studies celebrates Chicanos, women's studies celebrates women, and white studies attacks white people as evil."[72] Dagmar R. Myslinska, an Adjunct Associate Professor of Law at Fordham University, argues that whiteness studies overlooks the heterogeneity of whites' experience, be it due to class, immigrant status,[73] or geographical location.[74] Alastair Bonnett argues that whiteness studies treated "white" culture as a homogenous and stable "racial entity" - for example, Bonnett observes that whiteness researchers in Britain argued that white British people lived in a homogenous "white culture" (which Bonnett observed was never clearly described), with the researchers completely ignoring British culture's regional diversity, despite having ample opportunity to study it.[75]

Barbara Kay, a columnist for the National Post, has sharply criticized whiteness studies, writing that it "points to a new low in moral vacuity and civilizational self-loathing" and is an example of "academic pusillanimity." According to Kay, whiteness studies "cuts to the chase: It is all, and only, about white self-hate."[76]

Kay noted the leanings of the field by quoting Jeff Hitchcock, co-founder and executive director of the Center for the Study of White American Culture (CSWAC)[77] who stated in a 1998 speech:

There is no crime that whiteness has not committed against people of colour.... We must blame whiteness for the continuing patterns today... which damage and prevent the humanity of those of us within it....We must blame whiteness for the continuing patterns today that deny the rights of those outside of whiteness and which damage and pervert the humanity of those of us within it.[76][78]

Regarding whiteness studies (WS) more broadly, Kay wrote:

WS teaches that if you are white, you are branded, literally in the flesh, with evidence of a kind of original sin. You can try to mitigate your evilness, but you can't eradicate it. The goal of WS is to entrench permanent race consciousness in everyone — eternal victimhood for nonwhites, eternal guilt for whites — and was most famously framed by WS chief guru, Noel Ignatiev, former professor at Harvard University [sic, Ignatiev was a Ph.D. student and then a tutor at Harvard, but never a professor], now teaching at the Massachusetts College of Art: "The key to solving the social problems of our age is to abolish the white race — in other words, to abolish the privileges of the white skin."[76]

In addition to such criticism in the mass media, whiteness studies has earned a mixed reception from academics in other fields. In 2001, historian Eric Arnesen wrote that "whiteness has become a blank screen onto which those who claim to analyze it can project their own meanings" and that the field "suffers from a number of potentially fatal methodological and conceptual flaws."[79] First, Arnesen writes that the core theses of whiteness studies—that racial categories are arbitrary social constructs without definite biological basis, and that some white Americans benefit from racist discrimination of non-whites—have been common wisdom in academia for many decades and are hardly as novel or controversial as whiteness studies scholars seem to believe. Additionally, Arnesen accuses whiteness studies scholars of sloppy thinking; of making claims not supported by their sources; of overstating supporting evidence and cherry picking to neglect contrary information.

He notes that a particular datum almost entirely ignored by whiteness studies scholars is religion, which has played a prominent role in conflicts among various American classes. He says that a type of "keyword literalism" persists in whiteness studies, where important words and phrases from primary sources are taken out of their historical context. Whiteness has so many different definitions that the word is "nothing less than a moving target."[79] Arnesen notes that whiteness studies scholars are entirely on the far left of the political spectrum, and suggests that their apparent vitriol towards white Americans is due in part to white workers not fulfilling the predictions of Marxist theory that the proletariat would overcome racial, national and class distinctions to unite and overthrow capitalism. He cites, as an example, David Roediger’s afterword to the seminal Wages of Whiteness, which asserts that the book was written as a reaction to "the appalling extent to which white male workers voted for Reaganism in the 1980s."[79] Arnesen argues that in the absence of supporting evidence, whiteness studies often rely on amateurish Freudian speculation about the motives of white people: "The psychoanalysis of whiteness here differs from the 'talking cure' of Freudianism partly in its neglect of the speech of those under study." Without more accurate scholarship, Arnesen writes that "it is time to retire whiteness for more precise historical categories and analytical tools."[79]

In 2002 historian Peter Kolchin offered a more positive assessment and declared that, at its best, whiteness studies has "unfulfilled potential" and offers a novel and valuable means of studying history.[80] Particularly, he praises scholarship into the development of the concept of whiteness in the United States, and notes that the definition and implications of a white racial identity have shifted over the decades. Yet Kolchin describes a "persistent sense of unease" with certain aspects of whiteness studies. There is no consensus definition of whiteness, and thus the word is used in vague and contradictory ways, with some scholars even leaving the term undefined in their articles or essays."[80] Kolchin also objects to "a persistent dualism evident in the work of the best whiteness studies authors," who often claim that whiteness is a social construct while also arguing, paradoxically, that whiteness is an "omnipresent and unchanging" reality existing independent of socialization.[80] Kolchin agrees that entering a post-racial paradigm might be beneficial for humanity, but he challenges the didactic tone of whiteness studies scholars who single out a white racial identification as negative, while praising a black or Asian self-identification. Scholars in whiteness studies sometimes seriously undermine their arguments by interpreting historical evidence independent of its broader context (e.g., Karen Brodkin's examination of American anti-semitism largely neglects its roots in European anti-semitism). Finally, Kolchin categorically rejects the argument—common amongst many whiteness scholars—that racism and whiteness are intrinsically and uniquely American, and he expresses concern at the "belief in the moral emptiness of whiteness [...] there is a thin line between saying that whiteness is evil and saying that whites are evil."[80]

Theodore W. Allen, pioneering writer on "white skin privilege" and "white privilege" from the 1960s until his death in 2005, offered a critical review "On Roediger’s Wages of Whiteness" (Revised Edition).[60] He personally put "whiteness" in quotes because he shied away from using the term. As Allen explained,

"it’s an abstract noun, it’s an abstraction, it’s an attribute of some people, it’s not the role they play. And the white race is an actual objective thing. It’s not anthropologic, it’s a historically developed identity of European Americans and Anglo-Americans and so it has to be dealt with. It functions... in this history of ours and it has to be recognized as such. . . .to slough it off under the heading of ‘whiteness,’ to me seems to get away from the basic white race identity trauma."[60][47]p. 78 n. 187

In a scholarly debate with whiteness studies pioneer David Roediger, Eric Kaufmann, a scholar of political demography and identity politics and the author of Whiteshift (which was criticised for defending white identity politics[81]), criticizes the field as a whole, arguing :

"White Studies suffers from a number of serious flaws which should lead us to question whether this approach can continue to advance the frontiers of knowledge in the wider sphere of ethnic and racial studies".. These flaws include: 1) a constructivism which fails to recognise the cognitive and social processes that underpin social 'reality'; 2) an excessive emphasis on ethnic boundaries as opposed to ethnic narratives, thereby overstating the degree of malleability possible in ethnic identity; 3) a tacit belief in white exceptionalism, which overemphasises the ideological character of whiteness and deifies whites; 4) an elision of dominant ethnicity and race; and 5) a threefold parochialism in terms of place, time horizon and the role of race in ethnic studies."[82]

Kaufmann then proposes, as an alternative approach to the study of white identity, the emerging concept of "dominant ethnicity", using Anthony D. Smith's definition of "ethnic group" as a "named, imagined, human community, many of whose members believe in a myth of shared ancestry and place of origin."[82][83]
03-14-2021 , 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
I think the white race, as a social construct existed, but not "whiteness". I mean, is Chili's a white restaurant, is Churches Chicken a "black" restaurant? What characteristics and attributes makes someone white? CRT will tell you whole bunch of stuff.
I mean, just as a matter of logic, if there is a white race, then there is "whiteness." Maybe you understand it differently than in CRT. And yes, of course there were white and black restaurants - segregation was a major feature of American society, extending to restaurants before the invention of CRT. More recently, when I lived in Crown Heights I used to go to a Jamaican restaurant that had really good vegetarian food. I'd consider that a black restaurant.
Quote:
I agree that person sounds like a racist, but that person is Derek Bell, and in the video he clearly indicated capitalism is built on exploitation, and he clearly was drawing a parallel between the exploited and black people, and white people as the exploiters, and while he does not explicitly state, but it's pretty clear he means "whiteness" or "white supremacy" as defined by CRT proponents (i.e. white culture prevalent in mainstream society that exploits POC's) that is irremediable. Let's test your idea that whiteness is not redeemable. Name a positive characteristic of "whiteness".
You're going to have to give me a better cite than a 2-hour long talkshow for this on Derrick Bell. I know that he was a pessimist about race, he thought that American society would always remain racist, which I don't regard as racist, nor as equivalent to saying that "whiteness is irredeemable." Also, exploitation has a specific meaning in Marxism, it refers to the forced appropriation of the surplus value created by the working class's labor. Not sure exactly what is meant here.

As for a positive characteristic of "whiteness," I'll say, baseball.
03-14-2021 , 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
..
What part of what I quoted do you object to? Use your own words.
03-14-2021 , 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
As for a positive characteristic of "whiteness," I'll say, baseball.
Also scarves.
But yeah-- to the extent that white culture exists, 'whiteness' likely exists as well-- although it's going to be pretty hard to pin down and cultural attributes don't define a people. And even though Americans differ a great deal, I'd guess the average Americans of different races are going to find a lot more in common than people from different cultures of the same race.
03-14-2021 , 11:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
What part of what I quoted do you object to? Use your own words.
Sounds dangerously like a debate. IHIV just wants to have a discussion!
03-14-2021 , 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
What part of what I quoted do you object to? Use your own words.
You quoted a pretty unobjectionable section though.
03-15-2021 , 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
I mean, just as a matter of logic, if there is a white race, then there is "whiteness." Maybe you understand it differently than in CRT.
Racial identities. CRT subscribes to them, as do white supremist. I reject that premise. Can't get to supremacy without racial identity. If you want to argue that racial bias/racism exist and that has/had an impact on American/World society, and you want to study that impact, not much disagreement. However, when ever you buy into the premise of racial identities, which is what CRT promotes, people will ascribe positive and negative connotations to those identities. CRT actually proves this. CRT has a long history of associating negative connotations to "whiteness". Reason and objectivity has been attributed to whiteness, which is also considered racist.

Those identities are not specific nor do they encompass enough of the individuals that make up the group to be accurate to describe any one individual. If whiteness and blackness were valid identities, I should be able to use them to form my perspective on others I encounter in the world, which leads to preconceived notions about individuals I meet, and I would associate those identities and connotations to that individual based nothing more than their skin color. That includes all the negative and positive connotations. Consequently, that knowledge is going to create unwarranted biases. CRT demonstrates that a racial identity can have negative aspects. This is where it runs into serious trouble.





Quote:
As for a positive characteristic of "whiteness," I'll say, baseball.

I'm not sure how someone can attribute baseball to a racial identity. I'm also not sure how you can say baseball is a characteristic.

Last edited by itshotinvegas; 03-15-2021 at 12:26 AM.
03-15-2021 , 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
I mean, just as a matter of logic, if there is a white race, then there is "whiteness." Maybe you understand it differently than in CRT.
Racial identities. CRT subscribes to them, as do white supremist. I reject that premise. Can't get to supremacy without racial identity. If you want to argue that racial bias/racism exist and that has/had an impact on American/World society, and you want to study that impact, not much disagreement. However, when ever you buy into the premise of racial identities, which is what CRT promotes, people will ascribe positive and negative connotations to those identities. CRT actually proves this. CRT has a long history of associating negative connotations to "whiteness".

Those identities are not specific nor do they encompass enough of the individuals that make up the group to be accurate to describe any one individual. If whiteness and blackness were valid identities, I should be able to use them to form my perspective on others I encounter in the world, which leads to preconceived notions about individuals I meet, and I would associate those identities and connotations to that individual based nothing more than their skin color. That includes all the negative and positive connotations. Consequently, that knowledge is going to create unwarranted biases. CRT demonstrates that a racial identity can have negative aspects. This is where it runs into serious trouble. Objectivity has been ascribed to "whiteness".


Quote:
“CRT portrays dominant legal claims of neutrality, objectivity, color blindness, and meritocracy as camouflages for the self-interest of powerful entities of society” (Tate, 1997, p. 235).
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1167376?seq=1

Quote:
OBJECTIVITY IS A MYTH BUILT TO MAINTAIN WHITE SUPREMACY

https://wearyourvoicemag.com/objecti...ite-supremacy/

Quote:
“Higher education too can make a fetish out of ‘objectivity’ and ‘rationality,’” observes John Warner, confronting specifically The Pitfalls of “Objectivity” in teaching composition.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/more-...b0b65670e56963


Quote:
As for a positive characteristic of "whiteness," I'll say, baseball.


I'm not sure how someone can attribute baseball to a racial identity.

Last edited by itshotinvegas; 03-15-2021 at 12:39 AM.
03-15-2021 , 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
Racial identities. CRT subscribes to them, as do white supremist. I reject that premise. Can't get to supremacy without racial identity. If you want to argue that racial bias/racism exist and that has/had an impact on American/World society, and you want to study that impact, not much disagreement. However, when ever you buy into the premise of racial identities, which is what CRT promotes, people will ascribe positive and negative connotations to those identities. CRT actually proves this. CRT has a long history of associating negative connotations to "whiteness".

Those identities are not specific nor do they encompass enough of the individuals that make up the group to be accurate to describe any one individual. If whiteness and blackness were valid identities, I should be able to use them to form my perspective on others I encounter in the world, which leads to preconceived notions about individuals I meet, and I would associate those identities and connotations to that individual based nothing more than their skin color. That includes all the negative and positive connotations. Consequently, that knowledge is going to create unwarranted biases. CRT demonstrates that a racial identity can have negative aspects. This is where it runs into serious trouble.
Just so I'm clear, your disagreement with CRT is that they accept that racial identities exist and you think they don't? I mean, I think it is fine to argue about whether we should try to get rid of racial identities, or the negatives and positives of some racial identities, but I don't doubt that racial identities exist. Many people clearly and explicitly regard race as an important part of their identity. And society often forces identities on us without our say-so. I'm skeptical of some of the claims made by sociologists and CRT people about the nature of white identity, but I think it clearly exists.

Quote:
I'm not sure how someone can attribute baseball to a racial identity. I'm also not sure how you can say baseball is a characteristic.
You said that "whiteness" is defined by CRT proponents as "white culture prevalent in mainstream society that exploits POCs" and asked me to name a positive characteristic of whiteness under this definition. Baseball is part of white culture prevalent in mainstream society, exploited POCs (I feel like you are cooking the books including this in your definition), and is a positive characteristic imo.
03-15-2021 , 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Just so I'm clear, your disagreement with CRT is that they accept that racial identities exist and you think they don't? I mean, I think it is fine to argue about whether we should try to get rid of racial identities, or the negatives and positives of some racial identities, but I don't doubt that racial identities exist.
My understanding of Itshot is that the concern is more about the importance placed on identity rather than on the positing of their existence. Or at least that's my concern.
03-15-2021 , 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Just so I'm clear, your disagreement with CRT is that they accept that racial identities exist and you think they don't?
I have many disagreements.

Quote:
I mean, I think it is fine to argue about whether we should try to get rid of racial identities, or the negatives and positives of some racial identities, but I don't doubt that racial identities exist. Many people clearly and explicitly regard race as an important part of their identity.
There is a difference between me describing myself, and me (or anyone else) describing x race identity, and pretending that description has any scholarly value.




Quote:
You said that "whiteness" is defined by CRT proponents as "white culture prevalent in mainstream society that exploits POCs" and asked me to name a positive characteristic of whiteness under this definition. Baseball is part of white culture prevalent in mainstream society, exploited POCs (I feel like you are cooking the books including this in your definition), and is a positive characteristic imo.
Baseball exploits hispanic baseball players. I don't think many CRT folks would say baseball is a positive aspect of whiteness, but yet another example of systemic, or institutional racism. If it's not, how did baseball escape institutional racism wherever other one is still struggling with it?

It's not "my" definition.
03-15-2021 , 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
Racial identities. CRT subscribes to them, as do white supremist. I reject that premise. Can't get to supremacy without racial identity. If you want to argue that racial bias/racism exist and that has/had an impact on American/World society, and you want to study that impact, not much disagreement. However, when ever you buy into the premise of racial identities, which is what CRT promotes, people will ascribe positive and negative connotations to those identities. CRT actually proves this. CRT has a long history of associating negative connotations to "whiteness".

Those identities are not specific nor do they encompass enough of the individuals that make up the group to be accurate to describe any one individual. If whiteness and blackness were valid identities, I should be able to use them to form my perspective on others I encounter in the world, which leads to preconceived notions about individuals I meet, and I would associate those identities and connotations to that individual based nothing more than their skin color. That includes all the negative and positive connotations. Consequently, that knowledge is going to create unwarranted biases. CRT demonstrates that a racial identity can have negative aspects. This is where it runs into serious trouble. Objectivity has been ascribed to "whiteness".
This is flatly misreading the text you cite. "CRT portrays dominant legal claims of...objectivity... as camouflauges for the self-interest of powerful entities of society." A legal claim of objectivity by a powerful entity of society is not objectivity itself.

Similarly, claiming that journalistic objectivity is impossible is saying that any such claim is false, not that white claims of objectivity are fine and good.

I think part of where we disagree here is that I don't think that just because notions of racial identity can be or typically are used in negative ways that they don't exist. I'm not a Christian, but I do kind of believe in original sin, that humans find some forms of evil natural, and the kind of group identity that undergirds racial identity seems a likely candidate.
03-15-2021 , 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
My understanding of Itshot is that the concern is more about the importance placed on identity rather than on the positing of their existence. Or at least that's my concern.
Yeah, I should have made that more clear. It's the social significance place on racial identities that I reject, but I also reject racial identities as having any deterministic value.
03-15-2021 , 01:01 AM
Tbf-- baseball exploits all its players as a result of how the free agent system works such that players have to wait until their some of best playing days are behind them before they can actually start getting paid their full market value.
03-15-2021 , 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
This is flatly misreading the text you cite. "CRT portrays dominant legal claims of...objectivity... as camouflauges for the self-interest of powerful entities of society." A legal claim of objectivity by a powerful entity of society is not objectivity itself.

Similarly, claiming that journalistic objectivity is impossible is saying that any such claim is false, not that white claims of objectivity are fine and good.
Okay, maybe that was not the best source:

Quote:
In Search of Wakanda: Lifting the Cloak of White Objectivity to Reveal a Powerful Black Nation Hidden in Plain Sight (Editor's Commentary)


https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7709...7.1.0001?seq=1


Quote:
I think part of where we disagree here is that I don't think that just because notions of racial identity can be or typically are used in negative ways that they don't exist. I'm not a Christian, but I do kind of believe in original sin, that humans find some forms of evil natural, and the kind of group identity that undergirds racial identity seems a likely candidate.

I posted a clarification. It's the social significance place on racial identities that I reject, but I also reject racial identities as having any deterministic value.
03-15-2021 , 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
I have many disagreements.
Do you believe that racial identities exist?

Quote:
There is a difference between me describing myself, and me (or anyone else) describing x race identity, and pretending that description has any scholarly value.
Racial identity has clear scholarly value in law, eg in studying the effects of discrimination law, election law, housing law, and so on on different racial groups.

Quote:
Baseball exploits hispanic baseball players. I don't think many CRT folks would say baseball is a positive aspect of whiteness, but yet another example of systemic, or institutional racism. If it's not, how did baseball escape institutional racism wherever other one is still struggling with it?
I don't know what CRT people would say about baseball, you asked for what I thought was a positive characteristic. I'm granting that baseball has exploited POC. I still think it is a positive part of white culture.

Quote:
It's not "my" definition.
Okay, but then I'll say I'm doubtful this is how CRT define "whiteness."
03-15-2021 , 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
Tbf-- baseball exploits all its players as a result of how the free agent system works.
It's interesting becasue they are regarded as having one of the most powerful unions in sports, if not in business.
03-15-2021 , 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Okay, but then I'll say I'm doubtful this is how CRT define "whiteness."

I'm not that articulate, but my guess I did not miss the mark by much:


Quote:
Professor of Sociology Cliford Leek notes that whiteness can be defined “as a set of practices that function to protect and maintain privilege, while others define whiteness simply as the experience of privilege” (2014, 214). Both definitions are necessary; however, even those who acknowledge their whiteness often do not recognize the ways in which it protects privilege, which is one way in which whiteness becomes problematic.

https://repository.library.georgetow...pdf?sequence=1
03-15-2021 , 01:09 AM
Major League Baseball players have one of the best unions around. Minor league players have basically nothing.
03-15-2021 , 01:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
Okay, maybe that was not the best source:
I can't access this commentary, but this seems to be a recent movie review in an academic journal, not a central text of CRT. Anyway, even here the author is objecting to how "objective" research has obfuscated actual Black progress rather objectivity itself or ascribing it as an exclusive feature of whiteness. For instance, "Notwithstanding many useful research methods and strategies derived from objective research, objectivity as an exclusive research paradigm is vulnerable to error and prejudice."

Quote:
I posted a clarification. It's the social significance place on racial identities that I reject, but I also reject racial identities as having any deterministic value.
You don't think racial identity is socially significant? I'm just confused here. Do you think it used to be under Jim Crow or slavery, but it no longer is? Or that it has never been socially significant?

I'll agree that racial identity doesn't determine outcomes, if that is what you mean in your last clause there.

      
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