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Crime and Punishment Crime and Punishment

12-30-2023 , 11:47 AM
Craig Price case seems pretty clear cut, agree with posts above.

A more nuanced (due to the age of the perpetrators) one is the Jamie Bulger murder, where two 10 year olds kidnapped and sadistically killed a toddler. Was a massive nationwide media frenzy about the case here in the UK when it happened in the early 90s. IIRC the perpetrators were given indeterminate sentences with eligible release/parole eligibility after 8 years and were given new identities when they got out, although one ended up going back to prison for various parole violations and new crimes including child porn. The other one has disappeared from view, it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
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12-30-2023 , 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by chezlaw
Have some provisions for extremely dangerous minors. Dont try them as adults because they are (or were) not adults.
This seems like form over substance if your "provision" is going to be to keep them locked up indefinitely or forever.
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12-30-2023 , 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
This seems like form over substance if your "provision" is going to be to keep them locked up indefinitely or forever.
You just described pretty much every single one of chez' ideas for reform of anything.
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12-30-2023 , 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by d2_e4
Craig Price case seems pretty clear cut, agree with posts above.

A more nuanced (due to the age of the perpetrators) one is the Jamie Bulger murder, where two 10 year olds kidnapped and sadistically killed a toddler. Was a massive nationwide media frenzy about the case here in the UK when it happened in the early 90s. IIRC the perpetrators were given indeterminate sentences with eligible release/parole eligibility after 8 years and were given new identities when they got out, although one ended up going back to prison for various parole violations and new crimes including child porn. The other one has disappeared from view, it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

what about lucy letby, did she do it or not?
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12-30-2023 , 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
This seems like form over substance if your "provision" is going to be to keep them locked up indefinitely or forever.
I wouldn't keep anyone locked up indefinitely or forever.

but that aside it's about process. The process matters and an adult process is entirely inappropriate for crimes committed as children. Even more inappropriate if they are still children.

It's also about politics and the development of law. Provisions and protections for children should not be sidestepped. If you wn at to chnage them then argue for it up front and have them properly considered.
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12-30-2023 , 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by chezlaw
I wouldn't keep anyone locked up indefinitely or forever.

but that aside it's about process. the process matters. An adult process is entirely inappropraite for crimes committed as children. Even more inappropriate if they are still children.
What are these differences between the adult process and the juvenile process you speak of?
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12-30-2023 , 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by washoe
what about lucy letby, did she do it or not?
We're not discussing random crimes that have had significant news coverage, we are discussing crimes committed by children and teenagers, but to answer your question, I haven't followed the coverage of the case so have no view on it.
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12-30-2023 , 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by corpus vile
Ideally I'm not in favour of it, kids aren't adults. Certain rare crimes/extraordinary circumstances however, call for ensuring the safety of society first, above all else, even if the convicted offender is a minor, unfortunately. I don't think there's any easy simple answers or solutions to such issues.
There are easy answers. There are rarely good easy answers

Trying them as adults is an easy answer. It's also an extremely bad one
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12-30-2023 , 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by d2_e4
We're not discussing random crimes that have had significant news coverage, we are discussing crimes committed by children and teenagers, but to answer your question, I haven't followed the coverage of the case so have no view on it.

oh I see. In the US they give death sentences to 14 year olds, right?
so there is that. Iran does that too.
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12-30-2023 , 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by washoe
oh I see. In the US they give death sentences to 14 year olds, right?
They used to give death sentences and life without parole to minors, not any more after two relatively recent (last 15 years or so) supreme court cases. Juveniles can't get death sentences or LWOP any more.
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12-30-2023 , 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by d2_e4
What are these differences between the adult process and the juvenile process you speak of?
I was wondering this as well.
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12-30-2023 , 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by washoe
oh I see. In the US they give death sentences to 14 year olds, right.
Incorrect.
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12-30-2023 , 12:16 PM
When does a child turn into an adult? Is there a committee that decides? Or is it an arbitrarily determined date, like your 18th birthday? What is chez's answer?
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12-30-2023 , 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
I was wondering this as well.
Seriously? I'm not in anyway saying the different processes are correct but they are very different. And they should be different.

An example for those who mysteriously think they aren't very different.

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1. Complaint vs. Petition

In adult court the defendant is charged by using a document called a “complaint”, whereas in juvenile court, the child is charged with a document called a “Petition”
2. No Juries

In most jurisdictions, including Minnesota, when juvenile cases go to trial, the child is not afforded a jury trial like in adult court. Rather, one judge is the finder of fact at a trial. While difference makes for shorter trials since the lawyers do not have to spend days picking a jury, the juvenile and his/her lawyer do not get the benefit of multiple finders of fact. The child is still considered innocent until proven guilty, the prosecutor only has to convince one person of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, verses an entire jury.
3. Conviction vs. Adjudicated Delinquent

In adult court if the defendant is found guilty, they are “convicted”, whereas in juvenile court the child is “adjudicated delinquent”.
4. Sentence vs. Disposition

After a defendant is found guilty in a criminal case he/she will have a sentencing to determine punishment, whereas in juvenile court there is a “disposition” to determine what should happen to the juvenile.
5. Where the “Disposition” is held

In adult court the defendant has all of his/her hearings in the county in which they have been charged, which is generally the county in which the offense took place. In juvenile cases, the case is charged in the county where the offense took place and that is where the case will be tried or a plea of guilty will be entered. However, if the child resides in a different county then the “disposition” of the case is generally moved to the county of residence.
6. Rehabilitation vs. Punishment

The system in juvenile court is much more focused on the best interests of the child, and trying to make sure they are rehabilitated prior to becoming an adult. There is much more emphasis on treatment, therapy, and education rather than just punishment.
7. More options to prevent “Adjudication”

In adult court there are certain legal concepts that typically only a prosecutor can offer, for example a continuance for dismissal or a stay of adjudication. Both of these legal concepts allows for the person charged with a crime from being convicted of the crime. These are very rare outcomes of cases wherein the prosecutor must agree, and the judge cannot do over the objection of the prosecutor, except in exceptional cases. However, in juvenile court the judge can dispose of a case in either of these ways, even if the prosecutor doesn’t agree.
8. Open vs. Closed Hearings

In adult court, all hearings are open to the public. However, juvenile court hearings are closed to the public and typically, only the lawyers, probation, the child and family are present in the courtroom
9. All in the Family

While the client in a juvenile matter is the child, these types of cases generally involve the entire family. Your criminal defense lawyer should be aware that when handling juvenile cases there is more than just the client to interact with. It is important to involve the parents or guardians to help the child follow through on the lawyer's advice. For example, in a drug case the lawyer might recommend a chemical assessment be performed, yet the child might not be able to schedule and attend the necessary meetings without the help of a parent or guardian.
10. Expungements

Minnesota Statute section 260B.198, subd. 6 provides that a juvenile may apply for an expungement “at any time”, whereas in adult court there are many restrictions on how soon one can file for an expungement. As you can see, handling a juvenile criminal case is much different than an adult criminal case. Many criminal defense attorneys seldom handle juvenile cases, and handle them like an adult case, which can be a detriment to the juvenile.

If you or your child is charged with a juvenile crime, you need an experienced criminal defense attorney who is also experienced in juvenile court.
https://brunolaw.com/resources/gener...criminal-court
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12-30-2023 , 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by chezlaw
Seriously? I'm not in anyway saying the different processes are correct but they are very different. And they should be different.

An example for those who mysteriously think they aren't very different.


https://brunolaw.com/resources/gener...criminal-court
You misunderstood the question. Most of these, to quote Rococo, are form over substance, and are purely procedural in nature. There is no substantive difference, for example, between a "complaint" and a "petition" or between "adjudicated delinquent" and "convicted", or the finder of fact being a judge rather than a jury for minor offenses. The question was: which of these differences, specifically, do you think make the adult process inappropriate for juveniles accused of serious violent crimes?
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12-30-2023 , 12:31 PM
'Most of them'. So you agree with me.
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12-30-2023 , 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by chezlaw
'Most of them'. So you agree with me.
Which of these differences, specifically, do you think make the adult process inappropriate for juveniles accused of serious violent crimes?
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12-30-2023 , 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by d2_e4
You misunderstood the question. Most of these, as Rococo pointed out, are form over substance. There is no difference, for example, between a "complaint" and a "petition" or between "adjudicated delinquent" vs. "convicted". The question was: which of these differences, specifically, do you think make the adult process inappropriate for juveniles accused of serious violent crimes?
Correct. I'm not saying the processes are identical. I'm questioning which differences in process chez believes are beneficial to the juvenile if the punishment is close to the same if the juvenile is found to have committed the crime.

For example, it is not at all obvious to me that a juvenile is better off having his case decided by a judge rather than a jury. It almost certainly would depend on the circumstance.
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12-30-2023 , 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by d2_e4
Which of these differences, specifically, do you think make the adult process inappropriate for juveniles accused of serious violent crimes?
So you have now undertsood that difference are normal. And that these difference are not just form.
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12-30-2023 , 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
Correct. I'm not saying the processes are identical. I'm questioning which differences in process chez believes are beneficial to the juvenile if the end result is close to the same.

For example, it is not at all obvious to me that a juvenile is better off having his case decided by a judge rather than a jury. It almost certainly would depend on the circumstance.
I'd much rather take my chances on a jury trial than a bench trial if I'm guilty. The EV might be the same, but the variance is much higher.
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12-30-2023 , 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by chezlaw
So you have now undertsood that difference are normal. And that these difference are not just form.
Which of these differences, specifically, do you think make the adult process, in your words "entirely inappropriate" for juveniles accused of serious violent crimes?
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12-30-2023 , 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by d2_e4
Which of these differences, specifically, do you think make the adult process, in your words "entirely inappropriate" for juveniles accused of serious violent crimes?
I don't have any problem with a somewhat different process in juvenile court than adult court, but the scope of punishment is where the rubber really hits the road.

I think that chez's real point (which I am sympathetic to in the overwhelming majority of cases) is that juveniles should not be punished as harshly as adults.
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12-30-2023 , 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
Correct. I'm not saying the processes are identical. I'm questioning which differences in process chez believes are beneficial to the juvenile if the end result is close to the same.

For example, it is not at all obvious to me that a juvenile is better off having his case decided by a judge rather than a jury. It almost certainly would depend on the circumstance.
I understand, I think the question is misconcieved. It isn't obvious. None of it is obvious. Nor is it easy. However we need to recognise children and adults are different and should be considered differently.

We also need to ignore paradoxes for beginners unless posited by children. And treat the demand for specifics with due respect
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12-30-2023 , 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
I don't have any problem with a somewhat different process in juvenile court than adult court, but the scope of punishment is where the rubber really hits the road.

I think that chez's real point (which I am sympathetic to in the overwhelming majority of cases) is that juveniles should not be punished as harshly as adults.
But that's not what chez is saying. He's saying that even in the minority of cases where we all agree that the punishment should be as harsh as it is for adults, the adult process is still "entirely inappropriate", for reasons which he steadfastly refuses to enumerate.

Otherwise, of course, the "special provision" which he wants to invoke in these cases is trying the juvenile as an adult, and we already have it.
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12-30-2023 , 12:52 PM
Dont be silly d2.

The reason is that they are children. Even you can grasp that if you try.
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