CP5 (Moved from moderation thread) - Page 5 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

You falsely accused me of being a racist several times over now you're wailing over perceived lies? Withdraw your false accusations and then we'll talk.

It's not dishonest please cite verbatim via the court sources where the CP5 were declared innocent by the court.

You also falsely claimed the CP5 were coerced, please provide evidence of this thanks.

And no I already explained to you in the last thread regarding vacated convictions Mario Casciaro for example CAN be charged tried and convicted again potentially, should they find his victim's body. Re the CP5 they couldn't be retried or re charged because the statutes of limitations expired. Had ms Meili died and new evidence emerged they could well have been retried. You don't know how courts work.

Now again provide evidence of your coercion claim thanks.

I have never made the arguments you are claiming here so quote them or STFU with your continued lies and just making up others positions.

Again, and for the record to refute your continued lie, which I am again reporting to the mods.

And I officially give notice that I will just start making sh*t up about you, about your prior admissions of beating your GF's and pedophilia and whatever else I want to make up. If mod's are going to allow you to do it, then so to will I.

I told you guys over and over in that thread I had zero interest, NONE, in debating the case with you race baiters as i do not see you as interested in an exploration of the truth any more than a flat earther is. You just want the platform to smeer and need someone to put up the other side.

My position on the CP5 has NOTHING to do with me making any type of judgement on the case. I am speaking to a matter of fact and matter of fact only.

If someone has their charges and the case vacated there is no mechanism, ZERO for them to seek to prove themselves innocent (not guilty) or to get exonerated.

You need to be accused or charged to have those happen and if you are neither accused nor charged you cannot then be found innocent or exonerated.

Perhaps you are confusing my posts with someone else, but regardless you are repeating lies and either they stop or i also go scorched earth on you until the Mods stop one of us.

08-11-2020 , 03:54 PM

#103

EADGBE

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Quote:

Originally Posted by corpus vile

Yes. Uncivil as rather than debunk my post due to your perception with a well reasoned argument, you simply posted a gif. You also allowed the bad faith posting and false racism claim and false claim passed off as fact so you'll have to pardon me for not taking your chagrin re civility seriously, sorry.

Your posting has been debunked plenty already. I've already responded to the rest of this; not interested in repeating myself over and over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by corpus vile

Yes as Reyes statement may have caused doubt to the jury at the time. That's a technicality. Nobody is arguing Reyes is innocent. He didn't do it alone as the medical evidence shows, such as the various hand print bruises of different sizes on Ms Meili's body. And Reyes dna was found on a sock, not on Ms Meili. So just because the CP'5's dna wasn't found doesn't mean they weren't present or didn't take part in the rape/assault.
She was covered in blood and mud so would have been cleaned on arrival at the hospital, potentially destroying evidence and dna testing was in its infancy back then anyway. If this was today with far more advanced techniques and different protocol re evidence collection, they'd almost certainly be convicted and far more definitivey. Reyes dna being there doesn't nullify the evidence for multiple attackers. Regardless of your "LOL".

So please explain and elaborate on how my take on their guilt is "horrendous" thanks.

1. Finding the actual perpetrator is not getting off on a "technicality" and that is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

2. Sorry, but I'm going to believe the team of DA's who reviewed all of the evidence and compared it with the information given by Reyes, the inconsistent coerced confessions, and constructed a timeline which showed they could not have done it

vs.

a guy on the internet with alt-right truther Youtubes.

3. If this is your best line: "So just because the CP'5's dna wasn't found doesn't mean they weren't present or didn't take part in the rape/assault," which seems to indicate that you only really think they are guilty because they were arrested and railroaded for it, there are some pretty big issues with your take.

08-11-2020 , 04:04 PM

#104

EADGBE

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Thread should prob be locked like the other at this point as nothing good will come of it, but I'll leave it open for TD to decide lest I get accused of more #ModBias

CV,

Since you are so concerned with good faith posting, if you could quote the post you felt Cuepee accused you of being racist in, or just stop accusing him of doing it that would be great. Could probably avoid a lot of unnecessary aggravation and hostility between the two of you.

Thanks

08-11-2020 , 04:05 PM

#105

Cuepee

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Slighted

i haven't paid attention to this thread because its largely arguing over distinctions that dont matter.

i dont particularly have a lot of experience in post conviction relief beyond the general expungement level. large DA offices like where i worked have specialized legal writing attorneys for PCR due to the procedural hurdles involved. PD officers, where i also worked, generally outsource their PCR to another state funded group due to the nature of PCR appeals generally containing "ineffective assistance of counsel" claims. and as a solo i haven't handled anything beyond the common getting arrests expunged after the probation periods completion.

that being said in my opinion i largely agree with Rflush's conclusion. because a real "exoneration" like the right are saying hasn't happened for the cp5 doesnt really exist. despite them claiming that trump has somehow acquired one..

after regular appeals, habeus petitions can rarely be reviewed on the merits of the case, in order to get this the defendant has to pass a burden that is "it is more likely than not that NO reasonable juror would have convicted." which is obviously extremely difficult. its referred to as the Schlup gateway, or the "actual innocence gateway".

even if a defendant meets this standard and then is granted relief this doesn't bar the state from a re-trial. so by common sense even proving your "actual innocence" in PCR isn't an exoneration.

it reminds me of House v. Bell which was a US supreme court case where a guy was convicted of murder(1985) based on seeing him near the crime scene wiping his hands of a dark substance and having previous criminal history. AT trial the state presented bloody pants that contained blood from the victim and there was semen on the victims clothes. later testing revealed that the blood turned out to be victims however it was from well after she was dead and it had "spilled" onto his pants in police custody during evidence transport pre-trial, and the semen was found to be from the victims husband. the husband was also reported to have later confessed multiple times to local townspeople in testimony from witnesses. the supreme court concluded that House had done enough to pass through the innocence gateway as no reasonable juror would have convicted him, but still wasn't "exonerated" and faced a re-trial.

the CP5 case is similar imo. you have a confession from another party, no DNA evidence against the original defendants, actual DNA evidence in support of the other parties guilt, the other party gave details that matched other crimes of his that were in the rape, and even the hair evidence used against the CP5 proved to be not from the victim to my knowledge.

and despite what CV's crowd sometimes says, its not like the CP5 could somehow request another trial to get the magical "acquitted" status.

this is also obviously true due to the nature of PCR you already have a judgement against you. its like asking in sports if it is "harder" to cover the spread than win outright, of course it is.

i think people want a finding of "factual innocence" or something similar or for the courts to just say the word "exonerated" but thats not really going to happen. some states have factual innocence, but its mostly for expungement of arrests and charges that are dismissed prior to a judgement.

anyway. tldr- people like CV and others totally concerned with this one specific issue of "justice" can keep claiming that the CP5 was not "exonerated", because its largely impossible to be "exonerated".

some links to stuff if any of you are actually interested in reading more about schlup.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=1758161
https://www.kutakrock.com/files/Uplo...enceMatter.pdf

both are law review articles and kind of long. the first is by a law professor from 2006 and the second is from 2017 and was written by a law student at the time but is still pretty well sourced and argues a compelling point on how "new evidence" should be considered in these kinds of cases.

And this is exactly what I kept speaking to with CV in the prior thread, but not as elegantly as you do here.

This idea that somehow the person with vacated charges and findings, is not 'exonerated' or found 'innocent' is specious at best, dishonest smearing at worst.

It is not like the prior accused can go to the D.A and say 'dammit charge me again and take it to court so I can win acquittal and get findings of not guilty, so I can proclaim i was exonerated.'

There is no double jeopardy attached to vacated charges so the prosecutor can re charge if they think they have some there, there.

And if you or anyone is not accused by any State actor of any crime nor being charged with any crime then you enjoy the presumption of innocence just as any other US citizen does.

That CV hates that TRUTH and FACT as applied in this instance does not make not truth and fact.

08-11-2020 , 04:13 PM

#106

Cuepee

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EADGBE

Thanks but what i asked him to quote and what i reported, is his constant repeated statement that I have argued constantly that the CP5 were 'exonerated' and 'found innocent'.

Every time that has been raised to me I would say the exact opposite.

But I would add the corollary that 'since they are neither accused nor charged they have no mechanism to establish those things. but they do enjoy the same presumption of innocence everyone else does who is neither charged or accused'.

I have accused him of race baiting on this issue.

08-11-2020 , 04:25 PM

#107

corpus vile

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EADGBE

Thread should prob be locked like the other at this point as nothing good will come of it, but I'll leave it open for TD to decide lest I get accused of more #ModBias

I never asked for this thread others did, so feel free to do what ya like mate. I already highlighted Trolly's behaviour. Maybe if you moderate in a more egalitarian sense you won't face potential suspicions of being biased, just a suggestion.

Quote:

CV,

Since you are so concerned with good faith posting, if you could quote the post you felt Cuepee accused you of being racist in, or just stop accusing him of doing it that would be great. Could probably avoid a lot of unnecessary aggravation and hostility between the two of you.

Thanks

That sounds fair and reasonable and you're welcome.
Here ya go
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=188

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=199

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=205

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=277

Would you like more examples? Or are those ones sufficient?

08-11-2020 , 04:29 PM

#108

Trolly McTrollson

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Ah yes, they got off on the legal technicality of not actually doing the crime. Very devious strategy, that is.

08-11-2020 , 04:42 PM

#109

corpus vile

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Please cite verbatim where the court vacated their conviction due to them "not actually doing the crime"

08-11-2020 , 04:43 PM

#110

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,170

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

Wait, a 15 year old male having his own semen stain in his underwear is evidence of something nefarious?

CV?

08-11-2020 , 04:46 PM

#111

corpus vile

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuepee

You accused me of being "an obvious racist" and using this case which I never even brought up "to push a racist agenda" And this is an extra accusation not highlighted in my original links

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=558

So don't wail about others falsely accusing you reactively after your proactive consistent false allegations, multiple. Again, withdraw your false accusations and we'll talk. Otherwise not interested in your hypocrisy.

Btw feel free to make a case for innocence for the CP5, seeing as that's the topic of the thread cheers

08-11-2020 , 04:47 PM

#112

Trolly McTrollson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by corpus vile

Please cite verbatim where the court vacated their conviction due to them "not actually doing the crime"

cf. your post above where you admit someone else did the crime.

Honestly, you need a better hobby. Investing this much energy into demonizing black teenagers has to be exhausting.

08-11-2020 , 04:51 PM

#113

corpus vile

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Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

CV?

You mean two of them within the context of a brutal assault and rape at a location they were present at? To go with the mud, grass stains on their clothes and blood on one of their shoes? Yeah.

08-11-2020 , 04:54 PM

#114

corpus vile

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

cf. your post above where you admit someone else did the crime.

Honestly, you need a better hobby. Investing this much energy into demonizing black teenagers has to be exhausting.

So you can't back up your false claim, okay.

Yes I get you think agreeing with a trial verdict is demonizing people. Like I said you don't know what words mean. The predominantly minority jury undoubtedly demonized them too when they convicted them.

Only one with a hobby here is you with your trolling and you're not very good at it.

08-11-2020 , 04:57 PM

#115

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by corpus vile

The predominantly minority jury undoubtedly demonized them too when they convicted them.

Who do you think is fooled by these unbelievably dumb strawmen you keep constructing?

08-11-2020 , 05:01 PM

#116

Rococo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuepee

It is not like the prior accused can go to the D.A and say 'dammit charge me again and take it to court so I can win acquittal and get findings of not guilty, so I can proclaim i was exonerated.'

Even if an accused person could do this, it wouldn't be an affirmative conclusion that the person was innocent. It would be an affirmative statement that the prosecution failed to carry its burden. As you noted, the U.S. system is based on a presumption of innocence. It is not set up to generate affirmative conclusions of innocence.

08-12-2020 , 06:10 AM

#117

corpus vile

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This was posted by eadgbe on the CP5 thread which is closed but I'm going to answer this post here due to a false claim he made about me and various other false claims in general.

Quote:

1 My posts were nowhere near debunked nor were any other posters claims supported by the court sources

2 Reyes didn't act alone no matter how many times you insist he did, the medical evidence clearly proves multiple attackers, which you haven't even attempted to address,. Reyes is also an extraordinarily dubious source anyway. From the Armstrong report re Reyes:

Quote:

There is no corroboration for Reyes’s claim that he acted alone. The only evidence to
support the view that he acted by himself remains his own statement that he did so.
This makes Reyes’s general credibility a matter of considerable importance. Reyes’s
former attorney and defense psychologist have attested to his instability and lack of
credibility. Even Justice Galligan, who also presided over Reyes’s murder/rape trial in
1991, was quoted in the press as stating that “if Reyes is a credible witness, then
credibility has a new meaning.”

so your opinion is dismissed in this regard.

3 The CP5 weren't railroaded you're clearly unaware of the actual reason the convictions were vacated. No court found them railroaded, stop passing your opinion off as fact. Furthermore you believe the DA's which vacated but don't believe the DA's and juries who convicted?

4 Confessions tend to be inconsistent in general for a number of reasons and the inconsistencies were thoroughly covered by the courts anyway. From the Armstrong report:

Quote:

In the course of considering the new evidence of Reyes’s involvement in the attack on
the jogger, some have focused anew on the defendants’ statements. It should be noted
that the inconsistencies and weaknesses of the defendants’ statements were fully
explored at the time of the defendants’ pre-trial hearing and the Court’s decision. The
same inconsistencies and weaknesses were vigorously but unsuccessfully raised again
at defendants’ trials. It would seem that consistency would be a feature of planted
rather than spontaneous information. We believe the inconsistencies contained in the
various statements were not such as to destroy their reliability. All of the defendants
were obviously attempting to minimize their own involvement and the stories they told
necessarily included fabrications. On the other hand, there was a general consistency
that ran through the defendants’ descriptions of the attack on the female jogger. She
was jogging; she was knocked down on the road; dragged into the woods; hit and
molested by several assailants; sexually abused by some while others held her arms
and legs; and left semi-conscious in a state of undress, after an assault that covered a
relatively short period of time. This general description was common to all or most of
the defendants’ statements, despite some differences in specifics.

https://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/Armstrong.pdf

5 I have never ever posted anything from the alt right. I despise the alt right. I posted a video on the cp5 case which availed of court sources and was uploaded by an African American conservative whose views are no different from mainstream African American conservatives such as Larry Elder and I resent your false claim.

You allowed false accusations against me and bad faith posting and evidently allowed this because of your political stance. I strongly suspect you're viewing the CP5 case politically instead of objectively, also.

Now I'm done with this discussion and have posted this because I very much resent your alt right claim, don't make false accusations against me please, thanks.