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Old 07-19-2020, 10:19 PM   #2076
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

Jesus. Where's that padded cell?

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Old 07-19-2020, 11:27 PM   #2077
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Originally Posted by joe6pack View Post
Jesus. Where's that padded cell?
You drunk again? Can't remember the way back to your bedroom??
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:58 AM   #2078
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Originally Posted by WaitingOnAP View Post
Just because we cuepee and I just talked about this, the reporting on this is poor. All this shows is that antibodies drop after an acute infection. That's normal. It doesn't really suggest that immunity is lost. Obviously it would be awesome if the antibodies never went away at all or stuck around longer and I don't mean to frame this as antibodies not mattering, just that the conclusion in the reporting isn't really supported by the paper. I've linked it in a prior post if you're interested.
The article has quotes that dont suggest your analysis is correct e.g.

Quote:
Prof Jonathan Heeney, a virologist at the University of Cambridge, said the study confirmed a growing body of evidence that immunity to Covid-19 is short-lived. ďMost importantly, it puts another nail in the coffin of the dangerous concept of herd immunity,Ē he said.
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:18 AM   #2079
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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The article has quotes that dont suggest your analysis is correct e.g.
That doesn't really contradict what I said, and again, you can refer to the actual primary source.
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:10 AM   #2080
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

Good news from another vaccination study, with a mention of cellular immunity. I wasn't aware you could measure cellular immunity like this.

Quote:
Evidence from this phase 2 study indicates the candidate Ad5-vectored COVID-19 vaccine has a good safety profile, with only mild, transient adverse events related to vaccination and no serious adverse events. Single-dose immunisation with the vaccine induced rapid onset of immune responses within 14 days and significant humoral and cellular immune responses within 28 days in the majority of the recipients.
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Old 07-20-2020, 11:56 AM   #2081
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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That doesn't really contradict what I said, and again, you can refer to the actual primary source.
Umm, yes it does.

Also your claim that antibodies always dissipate is meaningless, as the problem is the speed of dissipation.

If there something in the source material that moots what I am saying just stop being a weird dude and quote it.
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Old 07-20-2020, 12:41 PM   #2082
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Umm, yes it does.

Also your claim that antibodies always dissipate is meaningless, as the problem is the speed of dissipation.

If there something in the source material that moots what I am saying just stop being a weird dude and quote it.
It's a red flag to me that the direct quotes from scientists in the guardian article are sort of noncontroversial things like

Quote:
“I cannot underscore how important it is that the public understands that getting infected by this virus is not a good thing.
but the reporter's claims of stuff like the "growing body of evidence that immunity to Covid-19 is short-lived" are not direct quotes. I can't really comment intelligently on this specific issue, but I've seen multiple high energy physics articles with a seemingly questionable conclusion and when you go and ask the physicist "hey do you really say that, because that seems wrong" it's usually "sigh, we talked for 15 min and the reporter left out 14 min of caveats and why that conlusion is probably not true or a long shot at best".

From what I can tell, MDs on twitter aren't all that happy with how this is being presented, but again I don't know enough to have an informed opinion on what the consensus likely is.


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Old 07-20-2020, 12:48 PM   #2083
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

Let's see what the death cult is up to today

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Old 07-20-2020, 12:53 PM   #2084
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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Umm, yes it does.

Also your claim that antibodies always dissipate is meaningless, as the problem is the speed of dissipation.

If there something in the source material that moots what I am saying just stop being a weird dude and quote it.
I'm not sure what else to say. It's not contradictory at all. Your quote is "Most importantly, it puts another nail in the coffin of the dangerous concept of herd immunity."

Which sure. If antibodies were found at super high levels 12 months down the road, it would make herd immunity easier. That doesn't contradict anything about how antibodies drop normally post acute infection. Herd immunity was dead when the initial R value was greater than 3 initially anyways.

I'm going to, again, encourage you to read the primary paper. I don't think you understand how human immunity works in general. In order to understand this kind of thing, you need some sort of knowledge about both the basics of humoral and cellular immunity.

If you don't have that foundation but continue making definitive statements, you're going to get over your skis so to speak. Scientific reporting is bad at baseline, it's even worse now.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:03 PM   #2085
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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I'm not sure what else to say. It's not contradictory at all. Your quote is "Most importantly, it puts another nail in the coffin of the dangerous concept of herd immunity."

Which sure. If antibodies were found at super high levels 12 months down the road, it would make herd immunity easier. That doesn't contradict anything about how antibodies drop normally post acute infection. Herd immunity was dead when the initial R value was greater than 3 initially anyways.

I'm going to, again, encourage you to read the primary paper. I don't think you understand how human immunity works in general. In order to understand this kind of thing, you need some sort of knowledge about both the basics of humoral and cellular immunity.

If you don't have that foundation but continue making definitive statements, you're going to get over your skis so to speak. Scientific reporting is bad at baseline, it's even worse now.
Im not seeing any evidence from you that you have the authority to override the authority of the article. All you have its bad because I say its bad, read the primary paper.

You imply you understand immunity, but that is an absolutely naked assertion not supported in anyway buy anything substantive you have posted.

FWIW if you think the primary paper contradicts the report just quote the relevant section. Its not hard.

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Old 07-20-2020, 01:03 PM   #2086
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Umm, yes it does.

Also your claim that antibodies always dissipate is meaningless, as the problem is the speed of dissipation.

If there something in the source material that moots what I am saying just stop being a weird dude and quote it.
FYI. you are going down almost the exact same road I did with him.

I was merely posting research and echoing the questions in it, and he acted like I was making definitive statements when i was not. I dared him to simply quote a single thing that approached definitive by me and he could not.

All the definitive, or authoritative ("you are making a mistake", "no one, not even the scientist should ever have expected a better result with simply longer efficacy that might be impactful') type statements were made by him. And i simply asked him to then "show his work" which he never did.

And I am not at all close minded to the points he tries to make. I just take issue with him taking definitive and authoritative positions ('you are wrong') in areas that are still open, simply because he feels he has seen enough to draw his own conclusion.

Good luck getting a different result.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:07 PM   #2087
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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I'm not sure what else to say. It's not contradictory at all. Your quote is "Most importantly, it puts another nail in the coffin of the dangerous concept of herd immunity."

Which sure. If antibodies were found at super high levels 12 months down the road, it would make herd immunity easier. That doesn't contradict anything about how antibodies drop normally post acute infection. Herd immunity was dead when the initial R value was greater than 3 initially anyways.

I'm going to, again, encourage you to read the primary paper. I don't think you understand how human immunity works in general. In order to understand this kind of thing, you need some sort of knowledge about both the basics of humoral and cellular immunity.

If you don't have that foundation but continue making definitive statements, you're going to get over your skis so to speak. Scientific reporting is bad at baseline, it's even worse now.
Oops, I should have read this before posting my last post and simply quoted it as doing everything I said.

I fully expect him to 'check out' soon instead of simply quoting the proof that could put this to bed.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:37 PM   #2088
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Im not seeing any evidence from you that you have the authority to override the authority of the article. All you have its bad because I say its bad, read the primary paper.

You imply you understand immunity, but that is an absolutely naked assertion not supported in anyway buy anything substantive you have posted.

FWIW if you think the primary paper contradicts the report just quote the relevant section. Its not hard.
How am I supposed to quote something? My point is that the paper doesnít say something.

Iím also not overriding the quote in the article. The article does not have any quotes to support the assertions it makes. Iíve linked the paper for you. Feel free to find support for the statements in that article. It isnít there.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:42 PM   #2089
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

You make a substantive point about the article, e.g. its wrong because

Quote:
All this shows is that antibodies drop after an acute infection. That's normal.
The article suggest with quotes from authorities that the rate of this drop is such that immunity from anti bodies at least will not be sustained over a long period of time.

That the article has no quotes to support its assertion is a blatantly false claim.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:42 PM   #2090
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Let's see what the death cult is up to today

Literally got nausea from rage at this quote.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:51 PM   #2091
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

Quote:
A similar decline in nAb titres was also observed in a cohort of seropositive
healthcare workers from Guy’s and St Thomas’ Hospitals. We suggest that this transient nAb response is a feature shared by both a SARS-CoV-2 infection that causes low disease severity and the circulating seasonal coronaviruses that are associated with common colds. This study has important implications when considering widespread serological testing, Ab protection against re-infection with SARS-CoV-2 and the durability of vaccine protection.
So yea original paper corroborates article.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:52 PM   #2092
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Im not seeing any evidence from you that you have the authority to override the authority of the article.
Ah yes, the inherent authority of articles in the Guardian. Here is one about how a 3700 year old Babylonian tablet that "is a trigonometric table more accurate than any today" whatever the hell that could possibly mean.

Quote:
At least 1,000 years before the Greek mathematician Pythagoras looked at a right angled triangle and worked out that the square of the longest side is always equal to the sum of the squares of the other two, an unknown Babylonian genius took a clay tablet and a reed pen and marked out not just the same theorem, but a series of trigonometry tables which scientists claim are more accurate than any available today
I guess we should default to believing it though.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:57 PM   #2093
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

The Guardian is considered one of the most reliable news sources in the UK.

Im sure if you browse through its back catalogue examples of all sorts of journalistic lol can be found. That said,if we are talking methodology, one swallow does not a summer make, especially two year old ones.

That said Im still going to ask for more proof of an article being false than, its false because I said its false.

As it turns out we are clearly dealing with someone with some kind of emotional bias towards negative stories about immunity, probably is invested in the herd immunity approach.
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Old 07-20-2020, 02:15 PM   #2094
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

All media make mistakes. Barring weirdly high numbers of errors, the sign of quality is generally if they write retractments.

Also, serious media will allow rebuttals to quotes in news pieces, and of course rebuttals to opinion pieces and editorials (with some exceptions).

Apply that as a "litmus test", and you'll shave away a lot of media outlets. Of course, the uncomfortable bit is that you are guaranteed to find some you like that fail that simple test, or at least some that write what you like. Telling people what they want to hear has become quite the art-form in the digital age.
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Old 07-20-2020, 02:17 PM   #2095
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
The Guardian is considered one of the most reliable news sources in the UK.

Im sure if you browse through its back catalogue examples of all sorts of journalistic lol can be found. That said,if we are talking methodology, one swallow does not a summer make, especially two year old ones.

That said Im still going to ask for more proof of an article being false than, its false because I said its false.

As it turns out we are clearly dealing with someone with some kind of emotional bias towards negative stories about immunity, probably is invested in the herd immunity approach.
But you are saying publication in the Guardian is some sort of primary claim to authority that needs to be overcome. It simply isn't. Here is another expert bashing a similar article about antibody decline and what it means for a vaccine in similarly reputable newspaper.
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Old 07-20-2020, 02:21 PM   #2096
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

Walk around any academic institution in the UK and if you see a newspaper or someone reading a newspaper, it will probably be the The Guardian.

Intellectuals and students are basically its entire readership.

Take that how you want.

If you look at the headline to the 2 year old proof of its weakness, its not inaccurate.

Scholars say X about thing is exactly what happened.

What the scholar said seems to be quite lol, he did say it though, but I dont think you can use that to bash the guardian every time it reports on the claims of any given scholar.
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Old 07-20-2020, 02:24 PM   #2097
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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But you are saying publication in the Guardian is some sort of primary claim to authority that needs to be overcome. It simply isn't. Here is another expert bashing a similar article about antibody decline and what it means for a vaccine in similarly reputable newspaper.
Yes but you are doing exactly what WOAP did not.

You provide a counter authority, thats fine and dandy, thats how is should work.

WOAP just made a claim based on his own authority, which does not exist.

My point was authority of article> authority of random on internet, not authority of guardian>all.
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Old 07-20-2020, 02:27 PM   #2098
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
You make a substantive point about the article, e.g. its wrong because



The article suggest with quotes from authorities that the rate of this drop is such that immunity from anti bodies at least will not be sustained over a long period of time.

That the article has no quotes to support its assertion is a blatantly false claim.
Can you care to point me to the part of the article that supports that their work shows "People who have recovered from Covid-19 may lose their immunity to the disease within months"?

I'm not trying to be snotty, but the paper does not say that. It doesn't say that because that's not how the immune system works.

The human body doesn't produce antibodies as if it was acutely ill for the rest of time. Thankfully, antibodies are coded into something called memory B cells, which allow for rapid reproduction of antibodies.

On top of that, humoral immunity (immunity that uses antibodies) is not the only type of immunity that we have. The other main type of immunity is called cellular immunity. This type of immunity is especially important for viral infections because (and this is highly simplified) viruses generally live inside cells while antibodies are outside cells. Cellular immunity relies on T-cells that use something called an MHC complex that exists on normal cells.

This system is quite powerful.

Someone else linked a literal hematology/oncologist criticizing the same type of reporting saying something very similar and you either missed it or ignored it. Not sure what else I can do.
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Old 07-20-2020, 02:30 PM   #2099
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Yes but you are doing exactly what WOAP did not.

You provide a counter authority, thats fine and dandy, thats how is should work.

WOAP just made a claim based on his own authority, which does not exist.

My point was authority of article> authority of random on internet, not authority of guardian>all.
I have directed you to the actual source multiple times and pointed out how the paper doesn't say the things in the article. Not sure how there's a higher authority than that.

I doubt you ever read the actual article tbh. If you did, you definitely didn't understand it.
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Old 07-20-2020, 02:34 PM   #2100
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Re: Covid-19 lockdowns and reopenings (formerly: Brian Kemp 2024)

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Can you care to point me to the part of the article that supports that their work shows "People who have recovered from Covid-19 may lose their immunity to the disease within months"?
It is a known fact that the scientists TODAY do not have a handle on the longevity of immunity of a COVID19. Could be weeks, could be months, could be years. No one know or should claim to know.

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