The problem with encouraging this sort of behavior is that the main people being intimidated and worse will be women.

This is just such shoddy journalism I can't even believe it gets on the air. Not a surprise in the Fox News era but still.

Sunetra Gupta is the co-author of the great Barrington Declaration. I am in total aggreance with her. You aren't. As is Lee. Regarding your remark on Lee. If you want to appeal to authority, then how about listening to the most cited epidemiologist in the world? His name is John Ionnadis. He has contributed greatly to estimating the IFR of this virus, initially from the diamond princess data which he then furthur revised to actually be lower. Does he agree with lockdowns? No! On the contrary. Just like Gupta, just like Lee and many others.


Ferguson has been wrong his entire life, on this virus, on swine flu and on BSE to name a few. And you say you are on his side? Sheesh.

See above.

It's not about an appeal to authority. I listen to experts because they know far more than anyone else and I want to understand. Lee adds nothing and if anythign he says has any credibility it's because he is repeating what an expert says. Unfortunately he says crap about the numbers that I've never heard gupta or any expert say.

I want to listen to experts and got very annoyed with the BBC when some know-nothign interviewer shut Gupta down with silly attacks rather than letting her explain her understanding.


Obviously we disagree about that. I also have to say it's the sort of attack I might expect from the know-nothing BBC interviewer mentioned above.

Was John Ionnadis featured on Plandemic?

btw if you listen to the experts they dont disagree very much abour covid. Barrington vs lockdowns are two ways to try to crack the same nut. The differences are almost entirely practical and political.

Lee makes a solid argument. Like I said, provide a counter or we can both move on.

Then you mention Gupta, who is diametrically opposed to your argument and views. So I must wonder where your sympathies for her could be possibly coming from.
It's becoming too easy for me to keep arguing when you're half agreeing with me.

As for experts, again Ionnidas. It gets no better than him because he his and at the risk of repeating myself the most cited epidemiologist on the planet. Give him a Google.

One last video I want to share. If you can find the time. A swedish icu doctor. The whole argument as in the last ten pages summed up here. Seasonality. Politics. It's actually all included right here in this video.


https://youtu.be/mjskQpcy7Zg

If you dont half agree with all the experts then you're probably the idiot in the room.

Lee is a bad joke in this discussion. If you want to present Gupta's argument then please do so. Or Ionnidas. But dont oversell it or it becomes Lee.

And to put perspective and emphasis, on the overreactiion here's a short analogy.
https://youtu.be/NrylRNt9uDk

Just to be clear. You have to present the case if you want me to be involved (you may not). Definitely not Lee or youtube.

Chez when I asked you to consider the harms caused by lockdowns, it was already too clear by your own admission, that you had not even tried to weigh the cost to benefit ratio risk of lockdowns. It was over right there. That is against sunetra gupta's preogogative. Don't you know.

It's been what I've been saying. No strong evidence for lockdowns. Science. However certain harms were caused. Florida, Texas, Sweden. We had to go global. I gave hypotheses about how australisa, Oceania and south east Asia. I explained why comparing a neighbour to it's direct neighbour is irrational. But what can never be argued because it's crystal clear lockdowns most definitely cause great harms. No question. At first do no harm. Well too late.

That's incorrect. I've considered it a lot and listened a lot, including to Gupta, and it's quite clear I dont know and nor does anyone else.

That's not suprising as it's not knowable because apart from anything else, it depends on what we do. We can have an idea of the issues and the experts like Gupta help inform us greatly.

But the cost of lockdowns is often graetly overestimated (as brought up in the BFI thread by me - yes I have considerred it a lot) as much of the costly behavior change happens without lockdowns. Any assesment on this has to be honest rather than selling something.

There is no 'do no harm. A doctor has a 1-1 relationship with a patient. Governments have to make decision which will always do harm to some.

Do I have to go back and quote you really? It was before the GBD was mentioned (by me). Which was co-written by herself.

I rest my case to be honest. You've come around to your senses, clearly.

Funnily enough, lee said governments began to behave like scientists and scientists started acting like politicians. Lol.

Yyou can quote me from a year or so ago if you like. The BFI thread has finally caught up with the extent behavior changes without lockdowns

I also brought up Gupta in this thread who I was quite familar wth a very long time ago. You haven't as yet changed my view on anythign which is unsuprising as you haven't brought up anythign new.

Sadly you seem caught up in rhetoric. As is Lee

Gupta was not brought up and wasn't until after I actually asked your opinion on the GBD. In this thread.
I'll have to go back and quote you. I gave you an out. Are you that drunk. I asked you about the harms of lockdown and you replied that you do not know. I'm talking a few pages back.

Post #3885

Sure. I brought her up because there is a case to be made and lee does it no favours whatsover. I wa sactually trying to help you out becaue the case is worth making and the experts on that side of the argument should be heard imo

Your interpretation is way off. Generally whenever asks me about economic outcomes I say I dunno because no-one does and not many more care. That doesn't in anyway mean thos eof us who do care cannot consider the issues and compare paths to some extent and with due humility.

Right so who is for locking down at all costs/we dont know the full costs yet/ all we need to do is try our darnest to suppress the spread of covid even though we have no evidence lockdowns work/ we shall worry about everything else so long as we get the spread of covid under control by locking down hoping it works despite whatever evidence suggests it's not working is thrown at me--- if it isn't you? What's that nobody? Welcome back to sanity everyone.


Peace out.


Ps. It was you though. And in good company.

we dont know the full costs of not locking down either. Economists will be debnating this issue for decades to come and probably still wont agree even given the contingent facts, let alone all the possible outcomes that never happened.

We still have to make decisions and yes I support lockdowns although I'm appalled at the way they were implemented overall (I speak mainly of the UK although it seems fairly common).

Note how the creator of this video cannot mention covid for fear of censorship. That's how wacky and hysterical the world became.