Edit not much better imo

By media I meant what I heard from news etc. I heard Sweden is performing below average, if you compare it to their neighbouring countries. But that was supposed to be due to their aggressive or lax aproach. And they were supposed to catch up to the better results later. Didn't really follow it for a while.

So it's interesting to me what happens there now.
Aren't Swedes players famous for a LAG style? Or are they exploiting the virus. Idk but it remains interesting.

Some compare Sweden with Chile. Apparently that helps the debate in their mind.

Minus excess rates possible? Possible!
The first minus is the excess death rate for each country.

Denmark
Mar 23 2020-
Apr 4 2021 2,420 -40 -1
South Korea
Mar 2 2020-
Jan 31 2021 1,410 -2,740 -5
Singapore
Feb 1 2020-
Dec 31 2020 30 -420 -7
Malaysia
Apr 1 2020-
Dec 31 2020 430 -2,350 -7
Japan
Mar 1 2020-
Jan 31 2021 5,750 -8,460 -7
Philippines
Mar 1 2020-
Nov 30 2020 8,390 -8,710 -8

https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...deaths-tracker

That is the exact M.O. of what happens in the BFI Coronavirus thread.

Any celebrated 'Let it Rip' area is always compared to the worst performers in the world and thus is an example of success. When you try to compare them to similar peers (first world peers) they give you a host of selectively chosen reasons why 'Sweden should not be compared to other Nord's' and instead should be compared to 'Chile' etc arguments.


Soon India will be the sole standard of comparison and any thing better than India is therefore 'good'.

He included Sweden twice. Sweden is in the middle in deaths per million v the rest of europe. Worldometer. You were correct. Alternatively select every country in europe in ourworldindata

Still looking for a simple yes or no answer this question you are ducking like the plague.

Or is it 'like a pandemic?'

I did answer this. Lockdowns didnt work in wuhan. How is china recording deaths? Are they recording asymptomatics that die of heart attacks, 28 days after a positive pcr?

Perhaps compare it to Chile or India.

All the best.

There is no doubt many countries have fudged their data, including the US around deaths but I am not asking about that here. i am looking at 'spread' and 'containment'.

So to that point I ask:

- Do you agree Wuhan was the epicenter of this outbreak showing the worst signs of unrestrained spread early on and that spread was mostly contained in Wuhan?

- other than relatively minor outbreaks outside Wuhan that were also contained quickly covid did not spread country wide as it did devastating almost every other country?

- Within a very short period of time Wuhan was fully re-opened (76 days) and the Worlds press was walking the streets of Wuhan?

So for the 3 questions above do you deny it was the lockdowns that allowed for such a quick and dramatic change in Wuhan and China, overall that other countries did not see?

3% of the planet is now vaccinated. A billion doses given with over half of that in the states, india and china. ~230 million have received their first shot world wide

Maybe what you meant to say was that 3% of the planet is now fully vaccinated.

13 shots per 100 people have been given worldwide which would mean 10%+ of all people in the world have started their vaccination process assuming 3% are fully vaccinated.

I don't understand what the "~230 million have received their first shot world wide" means.

Supposed to say ~230 million fully vaccinated

Thank you for clearing that up (I probably should have been able to figure it out given that I think I am good at math).

That feels like a small number. Even if 10% are fully vaccinated in a few weeks. Not sure if we can get to 60% fast enough to cripple Covid worldwide...

Concerning...


Coronavirus and the brain: UMass Memorial Health Care researchers say COVID contributes to dementia, embark on federally funded study


A team of UMass Memorial Health Care doctors has embarked on a two-year study looking and whether COVID-19 triggers inflammation in the brain that in turn causes brain matter to start to break down, leading to dementia...

...We believe COVID-19 infection causes neuroinflammation, which in turn causes a decline in cognitive capability and loss of brain matter,”...

If true, Golenbock says the respiratory infection can lead to the acceleration of conditions like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s disease.

...Numerous studies have demonstrated that patients with severe COVID-19 who end up needing ICU care often exhibited symptoms of cognitive decline during their bout of illness. A study published by researchers at Northwestern Medicine dating back to October found that more than 80% of 509 hospitalized COVID patients had “neurologic manifestations.

...

In fact, there is a growing body of evidence that neurological effects in COVID patients are more common than once thought. Episodes of delirium have been observed in critically ill COVID patients in Europe and the United States at unusually high rates — so much so researchers have thought about making part of the disease’s diagnostic criteria.

...

Their primary neurological symptoms included brain fog, which was present in 81% of patients; headache, present in 68%; and numbness/tingling, present in 60%. A little more than half of the patients reported a persistent loss of taste or smell and muscle aches that involve the body’s soft tissue — tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue, according to the study.

The point of interest for the team of UMass researchers begins with one central process: inflammation. The group proposed the COVID-dementia link after learning that COVID patients can experience an exaggerated immune response to the infection called a “cytokine storm,” a potentially fatal condition of multi-system inflammation caused by the release of an excess of small proteins called cytokines that act as messengers for the immune system.

The phenomenon is also thought to have played a part in what made the Spanish flu so deadly during the 1918 influenza pandemic, according to the New England Journal of Medicine. The bacterial infection Yersinia pestis, responsible for the Black Death that swept through Eurasia in the 14th century, also triggers the overproduction of cytokines, resulting in the cytokine storm, according to NEJM.

1. To my knowlege, yes.

2. I don't trust China data.

3. Lockdowns cannot eradicate a virus, obviously. What did fully reopen mean. My money is on the virus making it's way into Wuhan over Chinese human beings attempting to keep it out, everytime.

Without, saying too much as it could only border on conspiracy theory, I suspect China realised early on that this virus is not the black plague that it was first thought it was. Welding people into homes, disinfecting streets by spraying them (utterly unscientific, clear propaganda). Videos ot people randomly dropping dead in streets. Dump trucks sealing off a city of 11 million people. You have to wonder, does it benefit China to have the world attempt to copy them while they copy Sweden. Lol. And not count every asymptomatic person as a case or death over a positive pcr test.

In short, non pharmaceutical intervention cannot possibly keep the spread of this virus out of a city of 11 million people. You're crazy if you think otherwise.

Well you are bordering on CTers.

There was press from all around the world represented in Wuhan and across China and we could see life returned to normal very quickly, especially compared to the other countries in the first wave.

So it seems in your need to believe lockdowns cannot work, you are willing to let yourself believe a fiction that defies the reality on the ground.

The Chinese lockdowns definitely worked to stop the spread in Wuhan and across China. That is not in question.

Call me crazy.

South Korea and Vietnam have virtually no deaths from Covid. And China has managed to avoid serious complications as well - even though they mishandled it when it first happened.

Island countries like Japan, New Zealand, and Australia managed to keep it out by restricting travel.

The way to limit the spread of Covid even in large densely populated cites is fairly straightforward (limited travel, limited in person bars, dining, theatre, gyms, etc., 100% mask wearing in public, social distancing and proper ventilation indoors especially for workers, voluminous testing, quarantines when positive, contact tracing, shutdown of buildings for several weeks when outbreaks occur, etc.) .

It seems costly, and at first it would be. However, those countries I just mentioned are doing far better economically than countries that avoided lockdowns and travel restrictions and just tried to limit hospital overruns.

I would bet MarOneDouble will simply hand wave it away saying he does not trust such data coming out S.Korea and Vietnam, etc.

Why?

It does not conform to his view that Let it Rip was the only acceptable response as there was nothing that could have managed this any better regardless.

The above, is by far the leading argument in the BFI Coronavirus thread and anyone arguing against 'Let it Rip' is treated as if crazy and in denial of the data and facts as they cherry pick comparisons to also make that false argument.

Problem you have in the USA now is you have all the vaccines you need but now you have a large group that do not want it. Yes many of them are on the right but many are African American and Latino.
It would have been great if folks like Lebron and other African Americans got the vaccine instead of saying "not sure" Kudo's to John Legend but on the right Trump said to get it and many country stars have as well
As well why not have Biden's speech with every senator that has been vaccinated in attendance not wearing a mask. Than Biden could say this is were vaccines get us. Blew a large opportunity in my opinion.

I still think you could convince 1/2 those folks to get a vaccine if you show them no masks and life back to normal

I think what the UK just tried out with the Sanctioned Rave Mass Gathering Event is both brilliant and a missed opportunity.

The event should have been restricted to attendees who were vaccinated only and not just 'tested'.

I get they had another goal of trying to determine how life might look with a mix of vaccinated and non vaccinated in the future, attending events and that too is worthy data.

But I think this could be a model for how cities could get their young people to race to get vaccinated.

Musicians are dying to get back to a normal where they can perform and make money. So City and State governments should use tax money to run a series of 'Welcome Back to Normal Life events' with top artists and local artists, free to attend for any vaccinated and prohibited for all else.

I think you would see a ton of younger people suddenly get over any hesitancy with that 'Carrot', instead of the 'stick' approach.

Let it Rip AND Let's Kill Off The Olds (for Soylent Green). Absolutely a troll-worthy thread

Ya it is such a stark contrast seeing what is said in that forum.

One poster literally said that the old people are living too long regardless, and the resources/room/opportunities they are taking up would be better utilized by younger people like him as a reason to 'Let it Rip'.

He also suggested laughing at anyone who got Covid and was complaining of ongoing challenges as he had got covid and had no issues with it. Thus those complaining are the fat, lazy, etc.

100 % agree about those that got vaccinated and tested.