Again, that is not what's happening. Why do you keep building this straw man?

But that is what is happening.

People are called trump supporters despite not supporting trump in the way I analyse above.

I understand your analysis to be they are not trump supporters provided they do not vote for trump and support voting for Biden. Correct, if mistaken. Feel free to show your work in this analysis by linking a few of the posts where they support voting for Biden.

Your view, using your words, is that these people getting called trump supporters (unfairly, in your opinion) are just evaluating the positions/policies fairly and pointing out where they think criticisms are misguided, even though they don't support the positions/policies let alone the politician/party. I mean, really? You seriously think that's what's happening here?

@cupee

ys trump admin shouuld have done way more, should have been better, all acros the ****ing board. especially wrt communicaqtion which was the ****ign EASIEST thing to do.



if biden was POTUS, besides the comm part, what would he have done more? would he shut down federal wide asap and keep it prolonged nationwide for months. as we prolly should have?

based on what biden and other dems said early on, they were right on the comm factor but I dont know how decisive they would have ben wrt power at hand

A month later, Pence’s wildly optimistic view of the pandemic has proved almost entirely wrong

In news that should surprise absolutely nobody, every prediction Pence made about our containment of the virus and things getting better was laughably bad

we don't support someone we wont vote for (or wouldn't if we had a vote). Don't have to support X to not support Y although it arguably makes it even more ridiculous to claim they support X if they support someone else rather than nobody.

Fairness has nothing to do with. It's just ridiculous to claim someone who doesn't X, does support X. If you want to observe something about what they do support then say so.

Yes of course, it's quite common here. We don't have to agree with what they do support, their reasons for doing so or anything else. We might think that's all nonsense or ridiculous and we might even be right. It still does't make them a supporter of the person they wont vote for.

I think any POTUS but Trump would have got out of the CDC and Fauci way and let them lead this, while the POTUS then ensured and pressured to make sure all the Governors were on side.

No State would 'go it alone' and risk being the only one wrong. They would rather follow the leader even if wrong, so they could avoid blame.

Trump created the situation for any Governor and any every person to basically give the finger to the scientists and the science and many did and still are.

I've raised this many times and it has never really got a reply but this...



...is following right on Covid's heels and will almost certain wipe out most of those who catch Covid, even asymptomatically.

If Trump wipes out Obama Care and kills off "existing conditions' protection, anyone who gets covid, sick or not, will be labeled by Big Insurance as having pre-existing conditions and kicked out of their insurance pools and either forced to buy far more facility type insurance or go on uninsured.

Regardless it will be the biggest gutting of the middle class and below since the 2008/9 mortgage crisis, in which the little guy had to foot the cost and subsidize the rich.

Here we go again.

Covid may kick you down and kill some, but those who get up, won't even see the next big kick coming.

Bet on that!

I think the best way to look at what Biden would have done is to look at what Obama did with Biden's help and support.

The first thing Biden would have done differently is he would probably have paid close attention to the Pandemic Team's 2018 simulation. Which likely would have focused on the lack of PPE and the means available to mass produce it in the US.

Then Biden wouldn't have dismissed the Pandemic Team as Trump did in early 2019.

Then he wouldn't have fired the US WHO rep in the Wuhan province of China as Trump did in July of 2019 (well her last day was supposed to be in September but she quit in July after being given notice). That left the US without access to data in Wuhan when it probably mattered most.

Then Biden would have listened carefully to that Pandemic Team about how to keep the Coronavirus in check. And I would guess that they also would have advised Biden to make an all out effort to mass produce tests.

Then Biden would likely have followed the advice of the Pandemic Team and CDC as closely as possible instead of trying to dismiss the Pandemic as Trump did. And of course he wouldn't have contradicted the message of his health experts as Trump did.

I would guess that fairly early on with the success that China and South Korea had Biden would have mandated mask use throughout the US - with congress passing temporary laws to make it official. He would have worked with Republicans to insure that all facets of US life were protected including businesses. Because that is who Biden is.

The thing is we don't really know the specifics of what Biden would have done because we will never know the specifics of what Trump was briefed by his health advisors and what he chose to ignore.

But if you want to look at what happened in the Obama administration that mirrors this crisis, look at the off shore oil rig that started leaking oil in the Gulf of Mexico. There was no way to stop it from leaking in the short term. And Obama did not pretend there was. Or that it wasn't happening. Or that it wasn't as bad as the media was making it our to be. Or that it was a hoax. Or that it was fake news.

What Obama did was put in charge his Secretary of Energy Stephen Chu (Nobel prize winning physicist). Chu and a team of engineers provided an interim solution to slow the oil spill until a second well could be constructed. Early on it became apparent that the solution would take time to implement and Obama made that clear to the public. And that clean up of the spilled oil would take time as well.

And now we remember it as a success story even though a lot of damage was done. Because when you trust experts and allow them to do their job and you support their efforts 100% your chances of success are going to be pretty good.

You have got to be kidding. Obama and Biden are responsible for letting the stocks of PPE etc get dangerously low during their administration. Even when warned that they were dangerously low, they did nothing about it.

And fyi information it was the CDC who stuffed up the tests early on. Biden would have had no more control over that situation than Trump did. Trump relied on the pandemic task force for advice and followed that advice according to Fauci. It was the dumbass experts who were responsible for the slack early response, not Trump.

The claim that the stockpiles were low is from Trump and he is of course lying.

https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...stockpile-wro/

Not ramping up PPE supply in the end of Jan, when it was clear there was potential for an outbreak at a level that the stockpiles are not designed to handle was pure Trump incompetence.

Disgusting

So if Obama and Biden were warned about it during their administration, certainly the current administration knew about it and did something about it during the first three years they were in office, right?

The stockpiles were low on essentials like N95 masks according to that article. So in attempting to fact check Trump they actually prove he was right. Lol
Most of the manufacturing of PPE was outsourced to China years ago, so ramping up at the end of January would have been impossible without tooling up local factories specifically to meet the demand. Not something that could be done overnight.

And also:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/27/c...nvs/index.html

I was referring to the standard that you set here:


Fine, change "unfairly" to "incorrectly". You think they are being incorrectly called trump supporters.

I believe their posts qualify them as supporting trump. I'm not interested in trying to look into their intentions, or their feelings, or whatever. If you want to hash out specific posts or posters that are incorrectly being called trump supporters when they are just (in your words) evaluating the positions/policies fairly and pointing out where they think criticisms are misguided, even though they don't support the positions/policies let alone the politician/party, go for it.

It wasn't meant as a minimum but fair enough.

It is nonsense to call them trump supporters if they wont vote for him.


but in doing so you're pick the bits that you claim makes them a trump supporter while ignoring the far more significant bit that clearly makes them not a trump supporter. You're free to do that it you want to but it does form part of the name calling tactic and it's reasonable to point that out.

The fairly bit you're stuck extends to even if we don't think it's a fair defense (and even if we're right). if we think their defense of a position policy is nonsense or mistaken or whatever then we can address easily enough - there's no problem at all except when people create one with the name calling thingy.

The far more significant bit you refer to relies on believing them. In many cases I think it's reasonable not to.

Also, I think it's reasonable at this point to apply a certain amount of guilt by association (with trump). If you're going to be posting political views, I think you have to be pretty explicitly anti-trump right now if you want it to be clear you are not supporting him.



How do feel about the position that Trump = GOP. Should we be letting Republicans off the hook when trumpmania subsides?

I feel like I remember ~8yrs of nobama and fighting over every single penny??

Lies as usual Joe. You were duped.

If in fact you want to believe Obama and Biden let the stock piles get dangerously low then Trumps State Department doing this below, IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC, to an already low stock pile should get them thrown in jail.

This is the US State Department Website bragging about being a "GENEROUS DONOR" while shipping out tons, TONS of PPE and respirators to China...


--------

The United States Announces Assistance To Combat the Novel Coronavirus

FEBRUARY 7, 2020

This week THE STATE DEPARTMENT has facilitated the transportation of nearly 17.8 TONS of donated medical supplies to the Chinese people, including MASKS, GOWNS, gauze, RESPIRATORS, and other VITAL MATERIALS. These donations are a testament to the generosity of the American people.


-------------


Joe do you see any problem with saying 'they left the stock piles dangerously low so I am going to give 17 Tons of key needed stock in the pile away to show how generous we are. That in the midst of a pandemic?? Joe, who gets the blame for doing that? Obama? Biden? Hilary?

In the search for independent thinkers, the last place we look is in the pit of conspiracy theorists who are easily manipulated and molded with simple parlor tricks.

But keep thinking you are an independent thinker while you succumb to the power of random YouTube videos, constantly.

They weren't "dangerously low" as you claim. They were at a standard level given the funding available. It was a perfectly reasonable level for 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014,2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. That's why nobody ever talked about it then. Or was Trump dangerously incompetent for not restocking them over 3 years? CDC contacted Trump about the potential for a hundred year outbreak in Feb.He wanted to talk about his ban of flavored vape pens. That inability to start early put many people at risk in the NYC dominated phase. The sunbelt dominated phase has been caused 90% by Trump/Pence not knowing what they are doing. You see most other countries, even with pretty dumb leaders, Bojo etc, doing so much better.

That makes you a Trump voter. You do not have to vote for Trump to be a trump supporter.

Are you an independent thinker Marksman? You did manage to make your way from the GOP to the Democrats so that must count for something..but I'm curious about your own self-assessment.

The stockpiles were low because masks were used to address a potential pandemic in 2009. And they were never replenished because the US was in an economic crisis and that was the least of their concerns.

Obama left Trump with a pandemic team that knew the exact situation. And they would have advised Trump that at the first news of a potential pandemic that the PPE would need to be re-stocked. This would also have come up in the pandemic simulation run in 2018.

Trump did not act to restock the supply in 2018 which in my opinion was probably correct. But then he doesn't get to blame Obama for something he could have mitigated himself.

However, once the pandemic hit, and Trump knew in December of 2019, that is when PPE providers in the US should have been enlisted. Not only didn't Trump do that but when a US PPE manufacturer offered to make as much PPE as Trump wanted, Trump declined.
The pandemic task force had been disbanded by Trump in early 2019. Trump was not receiving advice from the pandemic task force when the pandemic hit.

That the CDC "stuffed" the tests early on is true but it is complete incompetence on the President's part that facing a potential pandemic the tests weren't being mass produced as they were in South Korea. The error in what the CDC was doing should have been detected much earlier. In addition why in the world would a competent leader rely on a solution whose critical path was so long? There should have been at least two and probably more paths to insuring that tests would be mass produced properly. If the pandemic team were in place and empowered my guess is that they would have made sure there were alternative paths to insuring the tests were ready by early February.

Even given the CDC mess up, how in the world was the US then backed up on swabs so that testing couldn't be expanded once the tests were being produced?

Had the President not fired the rep in Wuhan, he would have known about the potential pandemic in the fall of 2019.

There is no reason why PPE couldn't have been produced in the US using the Emergency Powers act which would have enabled the President to turn any manufacturing facility in the US into a PPE production plant.

But given this power the President did not utilize it.

And even now US hospitals are again facing a shortage in PPE. That is solely because Trump is not making sure that the US is adequately supplied.

What all of this points to is that Trump never took this pandemic seriously. And he still doesn't. In his own recent words "It is being handled". And yet it isn't. The only perspective that Trump has on this pandemic is how it relates to him and his chances of re-election.

So instead of bringing the country together to fight this pandemic as every past president would have done, and what Biden would certainly do if elected, Trump is now insisting on opening schools up in states that are experiencing a resurgence of Covid regardless of the impact it would have on children, teachers, and parents.

The irony is that if Trump hadn't fired the pandemic team and had done everything in his power to address the safety of Americans during this pandemic, the economic situation would be infinitely better right now and in all likelihood he would be re-elected in November. When the pandemic hit Trump got a bump of about 4% to 5% in polls. All he had to do was trust his health experts, respect the facts, and lead.

lol Rick. Joe doesn't deserve paragraphs. He deserves mockery. He has absolutely no regard for facts or even self-consistency.