Yeah this isn’t rocket science.

Testosterone = performance enhancing

Lack of Testosterone = performance degradation

Except you discriminate against people was lack of testosterone based on your perception of sec. By definition it’s discrimination

And that’s fine. But I can freely point out your whole lot is objectively discriminatory

No, it's about basic scientific fact.

Well, I wouldn't care to fly in any rocket designed by you, for a start.

Well I’m not a rocket scientist but I do work in aerospace

These two posts are a pretty good example of the framing issue. There is one side (to mirror the language, let's call them anti-trans activists and anti-trans ideologues) which likes to frame the debate as being about "basic scientific facts" or "evidence". But on the core substance of the issue, there is really very little disagreement about any scientific facts. Like when a trans man says they are a man, it is sort of silly to interpret disagreement with that statement as being a disagreement over facts. Nobody is making a scientific claim like that a trans man has XY chromosomes or something like this. On the other side, even most stalwart anti-trans activist doesn't disagree that gender dysphoria is just an observed human behaviour that can occur.

Let's take the recent debate about middle school track and field as a good example. This is mostly a disagreement about VALUES and not facts. There are values of "fairness" and values of "inclusion" etc and they are in tension and the debates are about how to resolve those tensions. Scientific facts can help inform the debates on the margins (how much of an advantage exists in various contexts, for instance) but the reason we are disagreeing isn't at its core one of scientific facts.

No, they aren't really in tension. Trans athletes are able to compete in the open division and nobody is going to say anything about it.

You want to force them into a league of sports that was created and maintained for girls, which they are not by the definition upon which those leagues were built, and that has nothing to do with inclusivity. It wasn't meant for them. Go compete in the open division with the rest of the testosterone crowd, as is intended.

If you are a member of the testosterone club by birth and shred your card for personal reasons, that still doesn't get you into the girls' league. Once a member, always a member.

Since testosterone is a performance enhancing drug with very serious ramifications for one's health, it also makes perfect sense to force real girls who decide to take it into the open league with all the natural-born testosterone users.

We built these leagues for girls to have a place to compete against their physiological peers. Science makes separating male from female pretty simple. Don't complicate it by introducing a mental factor into something sorted based on plumbing and hormones.

Just change it from men/women's sports to male/female sports. Easy game. There are no open divisions.

Not very inclusive of you. There are some people who don't fit the strict definition of either, and that's what the open division is for. It just so happens, that's where all of the males compete right now.

No I don't discriminate against people who lack testosterone.

I discriminate against minors who take puberty blockers to "change sex" because that option should be fully illegal, and not rewarded.

I try to do the most I can to avoid healthy minors being devastated by radical leftist ideology

Good post, except some extremists monsters on your side actually do disagree on facts as well (you don't, so you don't have to defend that, but you have to be aware some people on your left do)

I disagree with this.

How do you know what motivation was behind the switch? How is it ignorance or bigotry to guess differently than you do?

It's ignorant to not know the facts, it's bigotry when you disregard the known facts, then make up and assert a derogatory motive instead. Congratulations on exhibiting both.

The trans movement believes a trans person is the "gender" they claim to be. So the term man or woman have no basis in anything scientific, but instead gender ideology. This isn't only their own words but they act it out as well. This is why men are forcing their way in to womens sports, bathrooms, change rooms, shelters for the abused, prisons, and of course demanding you address them as their self determined identity (or have a mega meltdown. Or have the government enforce it through the human rights code)

Gender ideology is made up. It has no scientific evidence behind it. It's just nonsensical ideology

I can prove it by asking you a handful of simple questions. The fact you or anyone in the pro trans camp won't answer in good faith is the most likely outcome but feel free to surprise everyone

1) What is a woman? How does your definition differ from the typical trans activist if at all?


Same question goes to you

1) What is a woman? How does your definition differ from the typical trans activist if at all?

Since you haven't answered my first question, I'll also repeat that brain buster for you. How and why should you treat a trans person insisting on "gender affirming care" different than someone who is anorexic. What are the key differences in their conditions?

Which facts are those? Seems like it would take mind reading ability for any relevant facts here.

i haven't seen anyone arguing that lia transitioned to win more swim meets - if people here do believe that then i'd strongly disagree with that

Here is a recent and an older quote from chillrob arguing Lia transitioned to win more at swimming. And to get attention.

What facts are you relying on when you argue Lia transitioned to win when swimming against females?

Women's intuition.

We know you are just making it up. Only you seem to miss this, even with your women's intuition.

Ok. This is all pretty meh, but I think it illustrates the original point, which is that you are disagreeing with me on a question of values and how to resolve different desires from different people that are in conflict and which way you want to "force" people. My original point was that this isn't a fundamental disagreement about the basic facts of the matter.

This is quite common. I'm not quite sure why the anti-trans activists ITT are so insistent that when someone transitions, it is actually for a nefarious reason to win where they couldn't before. I suppose it is going to be hard to ever prove that is necessarily false, but the simplest explanation is that the person who says they are trans actually is trans, and their goal wasn't to become the most hated trans athlete on the planet through some evil ruse.

She, her coach and teammates gave a ton of interviews about it but chillrob just makes **** up.

This is another good illustration of my point. You are getting mad at language and the use of a "term". That isn't a disagreement about any scientific facts. Or, maybe there is a bit, let's see. You claim "gender ideology" is made up - well you put the word ideology in there and that word usually connotates bad things. Do you think "gender" is made up too?

You think one way, I think another. We're both guessing.