Quote:
Originally Posted by Inso0
The best we can do is provide people the individual freedom to exert as much influence on their own outcome as they're willing to put in the effort for. That's been the legacy of the United States since the start, but we're moving away from it.
This is a paternal/masculine perspective. Responsibility and accountability
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Originally Posted by grizy
Differences in educational attainment account for most of the difference in slope. Other factors not immediately obvious but are important drivers: birth rate (lower = more persistence) and savings rates (higher=more persistence.)
I have pointed this out before but this observation really needs repeating. Black Americans dramatically underperform every other identifiable ethnic group (even Native Americans, though not as dramatically) in income mobility and most of the difference is tied to differences in educational attainment.
Once out of the bottom 20/30% or so, black Americans basically do as well as everyone else but for reasons not fully understood (yes, racism is definitely one of the reasons), black Americans have a much harder time getting out of the bottom rung of the social-economic ladder.
Actually it is very well understood and you don't even have to avoid left wing think tanks like brookings for the answers. It involves responsibility though. They are fully in control of the largest contributing factor for the perpetuation of poverty. The left likes to purposely dismiss and ignore this in favor of their feminine maternal perspective of an oppressor vs oppressed narrative and applying empathy to the oppressed. Denying their empathy as an accurate diagnosis or a realistic solution results in them attacking you
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl
I'm not worried about whether or not inner city schools are good or bad. They're not good. The issue that's being brought up is about the "deservered-ness" of the people in bad situations. For Trump and the nationalist right, the implication is a stark contrast between the rural exurb Americans who are "lost" and "in pain" and "forgotten" by the "coastal elites". They're real Americans who's needs need to be catered to and whose issues need to be resolved. But for African Americans and other minorities, usually euphemistically referred to as "urban", the bad situations they're in are self inflicted, caused by their inferior culture, and are used as a counter point to the superior "non urban" culture.
You can see how quickly this changes when Trump is talking about how well he's done for the African Americans, but then when anyone pushes against him African American areas are "sh*t holes", "infested", etc. The implication is clear.
In other words, the maternal oppressor vs oppressed narrative
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Originally Posted by BoredSocial
Race is a complicated conversation. Why is the student 'refusing to participate in their own education'?
It's very likely because their parents internalized the message that nothing they do will ultimately matter because they'll just have it taken from them. This is a very common perspective among poor people because historically they do in fact get looted rather a lot.
Why work hard and save your money if someone is just going to come along and steal it from you in the end? Why try to save up money to solve your long term problems if your short term problems are going to consume every dollar you don't spend today literally tomorrow?
This is a very common viewpoint among poor people of racial group IME. My wife is white, but grew up even poorer than I did, and she absolutely struggled with the impulse to spend money before someone vanished it (in her case her family) all the way into her mid 20's.
Black people in this country have an entirely different experience than whites. For generations if they rose too high they could very reasonably expect to be struck down by the system. Instead of mortgages they got contracts that were designed to steal everything they had invested. Instead of police protection they have experienced police predation (where cops patrol their neighborhoods looking to generate fine revenue while actual crimes are met with indifference and never get solved). And their schools and infrastructure are terrible. It's a perfect breeding ground for very nihilistic personal philosophies.
What I think is missing from a lot of 'they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps' narratives is any sense of empathy for just how few chances they get and just how severely any step out of line will be punished. Or any empathy at all for how screwed up a person would be if their family had been treated like livestock for hundreds of years and second class citizens from then on. Getting over the trauma is an extra weight they have to carry that most of the rest of the citizens simply don't. That isn't to say that there aren't people of every race who have had truly hard lives (I know quite a few), but the %'s in the black community are very different.
maternal oppressor vs oppressed narratives leading to a dismissal of any validity to a paternal perspective of responsibility
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Originally Posted by Kelhus999
Sorry, most (all?) of those studies were conducted via questionnaire. Given that, I think it is perfectly reasonable to question the efficacy of the study in addressing the issue if it doesn't match first hand anecdotal experience.
Anyways, LOL at anyone reading a Vox article and then deciding it is case closed based on the findings of said article. Talk about confirmation bias.
I think the posting of vox articles is a hangover from the echo chamber. There's nothing wrong with posting vox articles, they offer counter articles and touch on subjects the left cares about. That said, its leftist activism with little to no literacy in social science. the article posted even includes debunked "implicit bias" nonsense that even its creators have come out and told leftists to pump the brakes with. Post vox articles til your hearts content but its kind of weird in the way its dropped as if its authoratative or solid social science. These are opinion pieces cobbled together by activists pretending to be journalists.
vox "journalist" yesterday
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1155845434482548736
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeflonDawg
Apologies if that was a scattershot post, hard to understand. I think I'm just saying while people within a community perpetuate the results of their own community, the outer world that surrounds it has a strong influence on it, it's origination, and can quite literally strong arm it into stasis unwittingly (unintended consequences like the drug war or the Clinton Crime Bill) or wittingly (institutional, standard, and/or latent racism)
Put maybe even more simply, it can't just be people who care. The system has to care, or no change of significance is possible
absence of responsibility. Another maternal opressor vs oppressed narrative.
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Originally Posted by chezlaw
I mean that when it comes to the decision to kicking people out, it wont just be bad/disruptive behavior that is taken into account. The more academic (and those perceived to be more academic) will get more 2nd chances.
Disagree?
Is making people responsible for their actions the right thing to do? sometimes. Clearly you're pointing towards the empathy to those misbehaving as oppressed. Maternal