Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Conservatives: What are your principles? Conservatives: What are your principles?

11-17-2019 , 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
I think this question suffers a lot from treating it as if it has a simple yes/no answer.
It really does have one, though.

MEGASPOILER:

Spoiler:
Yes, Trump is extremely racist.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
I think this question suffers a lot from treating it as if it has a simple yes/no answer. Sort of like the bit about lying, it's almost like you're saying that Trump isn't a liar because one time he told the truth. I don't disagree with you that the opinions of those who know him are relevant to the question, but perhaps mainly as a way of delineating some limits to his prejudices. We should grant that he's not David Duke.

But, and it seems like this is a common hangup in conversations about race and racism, I also think it's a mistake to focus on questions of individual prejudice, though I think there's plenty of evidence that Trump has some prejudices. Whatever his individual faults are, what matters way more is the policies of his administration. How many others has Stephen Miller outlasted in his administration? And he's pretty openly a white nationalist. Racist comments about immigrants are bad enough, but a racist immigration policy is far, far worse. In practical terms, what's the use of being agnostic about Trump's inner state of mind when his actions speak so clearly?

Anyway, I respect that you said that you no longer support Trump or the GOP over some of these issues. To me that's also far more important than how you think about the question "Is Trump a racist?", for much the same reasons. But I wanted to write the above just by way of saying that I think it's worth considering whether there's more useful ways to think about racism in politics, i.e. by focusing more on policies and outcomes and less on individual attitudes.
I agree with your entire post, which is well summarized by the bolded.

On that point, a Fox News contributor named Gianno Caldwell, who is black, has just released a book titled Taken for Granted: How Conservatism Can Win Back the Americans that Liberals Have Failed

I haven't read the book, so I obviously can't say whether or not the book has any merit. His basic thesis appears to be (based on a part of an interview that he gave on Fox News) is that even though Mr. Trump might personally be rather unseemly as an individual (the author was critical of Trumps infamous Charlottsville speech), that nonetheless Mr. Trumps 's actual POLICIES have helped blacks more than the policies of any other President in his (the author's) lifetime.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 02:27 PM
But I wanted to write the above just by way of saying that I think it's worth considering whether there's more useful ways to think about racism in politics, i.e. by focusing more on policies and outcomes and less on individual attitudes.

qft.

Real politics ftw rather than the silly name calling thingy. Actually change things for the better. Be progressive.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 02:38 PM
Calling a racist "racist" isn't namecalling, of course. Why some people find it useful to never explicitly identify racism under any circumstances is an exercise for the reader.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 02:47 PM
"Racist" has to be the most over-used/abused descriptive term in the English language at this present time. As a result it's usefulness and effectiveness has been almost reduced to zero.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe6pack
"Racist" has to be the most over-used/abused descriptive term in the English language at this present time. As a result it's usefulness and effectiveness has been almost reduced to zero.
Next request for the house band is

“But he is not a member of the kkk”
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
I agree with your entire post, which is well summarized by the bolded.

On that point, a Fox News contributor named Gianno Caldwell, who is black, has just released a book titled Taken for Granted: How Conservatism Can Win Back the Americans that Liberals Have Failed

I haven't read the book, so I obviously can't say whether or not the book has any merit. His basic thesis appears to be (based on a part of an interview that he gave on Fox News) is that even though Mr. Trump might personally be rather unseemly as an individual (the author was critical of Trumps infamous Charlottsville speech), that nonetheless Mr. Trumps 's actual POLICIES have helped blacks more than the policies of any other President in his (the author's) lifetime.
so the book is factually incorrect as well as a grift? good to know.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
Next request for the house band is

“But he is not a member of the kkk”
You're a funny guy Clovis. By the way I was meaning in general, not specifically related to Trump.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe6pack
"Racist" has to be the most over-used/abused descriptive term in the English language at this present time. As a result it's usefulness and effectiveness has been almost reduced to zero.
It's possible the left has gone too far with SJW callout culture and safespaces, but calling a racist a racist is not a part of that.

Maybe history should decide how much of a bigotted racist he is. But if what you say is true, we have no one but him to blame, as he has normalized racist rhetoric and given it a the largest platform in the world.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe6pack
You're a funny guy Clovis. By the way I was meaning in general, not specifically related to Trump.
And when people claimed racism was dead when we elected a black president, i lol'ed
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
On that point, a Fox News contributor named Gianno Caldwell, who is black, has just released a book titled Taken for Granted: How Conservatism Can Win Back the Americans that Liberals Have Failed

I haven't read the book, so I obviously can't say whether or not the book has any merit. His basic thesis appears to be (based on a part of an interview that he gave on Fox News) is that even though Mr. Trump might personally be rather unseemly as an individual (the author was critical of Trumps infamous Charlottsville speech), that nonetheless Mr. Trumps 's actual POLICIES have helped blacks more than the policies of any other President in his (the author's) lifetime.
Let's just say that I'm highly skeptical of this claim.

But, I focused in on immigration policy because I think the argument that Trump's actions are directly racist and harmful is more obvious there than it would be if one were arguing for anti-black racist consequences of Trump administration policy. Mostly I think that's just a consequence of the fact that Trump and the GOP haven't really done much in terms of policy which could matter with regard to anti-black racism either way. He has far more unilateral power over immigration policy.

However I would argue that the Trump DOJ's neutering of the Office of Civil Rights, and particularly ceasing the work that office was doing during the Obama administration to pursue reforms related to policing (e.g. in filing civil rights suits against various police departments), is a negative outcome. But it's more like ceasing to do something good rather than starting to do something very bad. I'm not sure how beneficial the recent criminal justice reform package will be.

I guess I should say I think focusing on practical consequences is a good starting point because it's at least way more concrete. So people who otherwise disagree might be able to at least talk about it and get somewhere. But zooming out from Trump just a bit, there is still IMO a big problem with the GOP becoming a party that represents white racial grievances, reflected in the shifting demographics of the two parties and the way Republicans have exploited racial issues to get white votes ever since the Civil Rights movement. That's something that's less directly about policy and more about identity, but is still very important in American politics. Trump is, in many respects, a culmination of a long process involving racial politics. It's just also true that it's playing out more around immigration right now than other racial issues.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiiziwiig
It's possible the left has gone too far with SJW callout culture and safespaces, but calling a racist a racist is not a part of that.

Maybe history should decide how much of a bigotted racist he is. But if what you say is true, we have no one but him to blame, as he has normalized racist rhetoric and given it a the largest platform in the world.
Calling a racist a racist is not what I am talking about.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe6pack
Calling a racist a racist is not what I am talking about.
Oh ok, is this also an instance of the word "racist" being "overused and abused"?

Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe6pack
"Racist" has to be the most over-used/abused descriptive term in the English language at this present time. As a result it's usefulness and effectiveness has been almost reduced to zero.
If this were actually true, you guys wouldn’t all meltdown whenever the Klan-endorsed President is described as racist.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiiziwiig
Oh ok, is this also an instance of the word "racist" being "overused and abused"?

Again, as I said before I was generalizing rather than referring to Trump in particular. But as far as the "**** hole countries" comment goes I believe he was referring to the state of the countries economies rather than the color of the inhabitants skin. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe6pack
Again, as I said before I was generalizing rather than referring to Trump in particular. But as far as the "**** hole countries" comment goes I believe he was referring to the state of the countries economies rather than the color of the inhabitants skin. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.
And the band played,

“Trump deserves infinite benefit of the doubt”
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slighted
so the book is factually incorrect as well as a grift? good to know.
Hope you're enjoying your final year of Middle School, Slighted. Have a blessed day, young man.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 11:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
Hope you're enjoying your final year of Middle School, Slighted. Have a blessed day, young man.
i graduated 19th grade, thank you very much.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-17-2019 , 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe6pack
Calling a racist a racist is not what I am talking about.
Yes it is, although you may not realize it or be choosing not to admit it.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-18-2019 , 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
I have nothing personally to gain or lose whether Mr. Trump is a racist or not. In 2016 I voted for Mr. Trump, but owing to my displeasure with both his presidency and the Republican party, I recently re-registered as an independent.



Actually, prominent black people supporting Mr. Trump IS evidence that Mr. Trump is not a racist. It certainly isn't conclusive evidence that he isn't a racist, but it isn't totally meaningless either. Is Ms. Owens a racist? Is Dr. Carson a racist?





I am very much bothered by it, which is why I no longer identify with the Republican Party.



I think his verbal attack on "the squad" was more based on his own Nationalism than in the color of their skin. Not defending what he said, but given That he verbally assaults people on an almost daily basis, not necessarily racially motivated. Mr. Trump is always mocking Mr. Biden and calling him "Sleepy Joe", and if Biden were black his statement could be construed as employing an old racist stereotype of blacks being slow and lazy.
Let us ask all the sheep Mr. McLeod didn't **** to find out if he is a sheep ****er, and it is important to listen only to those sheep and not the ones who say he's a sheep ****er.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-18-2019 , 01:50 AM
Could the Donald assuage the racial tension by dismissing Ukraine/moldova/etc as **** hole countries too?
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-18-2019 , 02:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Let us ask all the sheep Mr. McLeod didn't **** to find out if he is a sheep ****er, and it is important to listen only to those sheep and not the ones who say he's a sheep ****er.
It SHOULD go without saying that I never said or implied that we shouldn't listen to anyone or everyone who has an accusation against Mr. Trump. But since you're an idiot, I took the time to spell that out for you.

Edit: Your sheep fetish is rather disturbing. Turned on by any other farm animals?

Second edit: I'm an idiot, because I'm not sure if sheep are considered "farm animals" or not.

Last edited by lagtight; 11-18-2019 at 02:41 AM.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-18-2019 , 02:53 AM
Just one day
just one second
Maybe just a minute - feel no pain

Don't torture yourself, bro. Let your posts be without preemptive editing to thwart imagined attacks to come.
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-18-2019 , 03:03 AM
Quote:
Actually, prominent black people supporting Mr. Trump IS evidence that Mr. Trump is not a racist. It certainly isn't conclusive evidence that he isn't a racist, but it isn't totally meaningless either. Is Ms. Owens a racist? Is Dr. Carson a racist?
Would ben carson not being a self loathing racist mean he can't be mistaken about whether trump is one? Do The Blacks have some 6th sense for sniffing out da chuds?
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote
11-18-2019 , 05:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbaddabba
Would ben carson not being a self loathing racist mean he can't be mistaken about whether trump is one? Do The Blacks have some 6th sense for sniffing out da chuds?
I personally think that Dr. Carson COULD be mistaken in thinking that Mr. Trump is not racist. But the know-it-alls in this forum seem to think that it is so drop-dead obvious that Trump is racist, that only someone totally sinister or totally oblivious could think otherwise.

I've never argued that Mr. Trump is not a racist. I HAVE argued that at least some people who you think would know if he is racist or not (like his former black girlfriend) claim that he is NOT racist.

Anyway, I've shared my thoughts enough on this topic. Since I'm just repeating myself at this point, I will spare the readers any further blathering from me on this topic.

Have a blessed day!
Conservatives: What are your principles? Quote

      
m