I think Vic believes that if you don't have enough capital to be able to afford $15 an hour for your employees to generate profits at the end then you shouldn't be operating a small business, you should be an employee yourself.

Right. How would that argument differ if it was over $5, capitalist lagtight?

"I can't run my painting company if I have to pay more than $3.50 an hour!"

You can make the argument that if your business isn't efficient enough to be profitable and pay people $15 an hour then it shouldn't exist. Tons of companies can afford that because they are run well, have economies of scale, etc. Allowing companies to pay low wages feels like a subsidy for poorly run businesses.

You mean owning a business isn't a 'right' ?

Such weird use of "efficient".

I believe that employers have a moral obligation to pay their employees a fair wage. But I don't believe that it's the government's job to tell both the employer and the employee what a "fair wage" is. I believe that the requirements of the job and the resources of the company owner are relevant to what a "fair wage" is in a given case.

Many years ago I worked full-time for a friend of mine, and I agreed to work for him for well below minimum wage for a while because of my limited skill set for the job, and his minimum financial resources at the time. Many people don't realize that the large majority of businesses don't even survive five years.

As time went on, my wage increased quite a bit.

In my opinion, the employer and employee should determine between themselves what a "fair wage" is.

So you broke the law ?

I didn't have you pegged as a rebel. Good for you.

But to your point, anyone is free at any time to work off the books.

Laws and locks are for honest people.

Yes, over 25 years ago I was a rebel without a cause and broke the law.

Good thing the statute of limitations is in play, or my admission here might have landed me in the slammer.

ya its not that hard to understand.

"I cant make a profit if I pay more than 1c an hour with no bathroom breaks"

"I cant make a profit if workers only work 40 hours a week"

"I cant make a profit if I cant hire children"

"I cant make a profit if I dont pollute the environment"

"I cant make a profit if my product is sometimes toxic"

this is bullshit bc the employer has tons more power. if its the difference between eating, feeding your kid, having a roof over your head, etc then you are gonna take whatever they offer. you cant negotiate.

your premise sounds nice in theory, but in tons of cases, and esp in the most important cases, it fails.

I don't care. Good for you for helping a friend out.

But I don't think that helps the no minimum wage argument.
As I said, anyone is free to do that if they like.

Running a business is actually hard.

I know some very talented and hard working small business owners and I know some who just like the perceived status and perks.

We can do without the latter and things like mw laws cull that herd more effectively.

Only the strong should survive in Merica anyway. Right ?

Like if Walmart can sell a product for a low price and pay their employees $15/hr and still make enough money to provide a good return for their shareholders, then why do we as a society want the mom and pop store to exist where they have lower profit margins, higher costs, pay lower wages, etc?

I'm sure stifling small businesses in the long term would be bad for the economy since all big businesses started out as small businesses. But it's a follow up to my previous thought on why having a high minimum wage could be fine even if it hurts small businesses.

1. Is it your position that I should not be allowed to volunteer my time and work for someone for free?

2. Do you see an important difference between the top two items on your list and the bottom three items on your list?

1. not in the sense that you mean.
2. no.

Okay, thanks for your answering my questions.

Can anyone else comprehend how ****ing terrible and absolute dogshit of a take this is?

its just batshit insane at the disconnect on the internet and others who think owning a business is easy and that they are the anti-christ

all these people who say businesses are bad, dont care about them, **** on them like vic etc,

are like people who watch golf watch the masters and without every playing or thinking about it saying "oh I could do that with a little time and practice"

Hate the minimum wage to 15 just because of inflation. It's already spiraling out of control now. 15 minimum wage will make it much worse. Plus people currently making between 15 and 20 per hour now wouldn't be paid enough to make up for the increase everyone loses it's just terrible policy

it's great policy if you're a guy making 10 bucks an hour

shuffle what are you trying to get at?


its not about business owners vs workers

He is very much a man of the proletariat. Never too low and (especially) never too high.

Feels like this would lead to massive consolidation at scale and vastly reduce ingenuity. Small businesses fail like 90% within 1 year anyway.

I don’t think the answer is to raise the MW (which, without COL adjustments, is awkward policy at best anyway), but rather to just give people lots of direct cash (UBI) and benefits (M4A) that would make the government a quasi employer of all and relieve fledgling businesses from assuming a role better fit for the government (after massive redistribution of course).

Seems like this solves the problems of
1. Min wage not giving ppl enough to rise above poverty line
2. Small businesses being choked in the crib just b/c they aren’t able to be profitable enough yet to assume massive outlays in infancy.

Basically, I want Wal-Mart owners and c-suite subsidizing the lower quintile and not the second or third quintile doing it. Min wage increase is a backdoor tax on the middle class.

It’s bad. Insidious really, because a higher minimum wage FEELS right.

If Congress passed a law that all multinationals or F500 or public companies or w/e had to pay min wage that would be better.

Still prefer my UBI/M4A idea more.