Ok, I think I get it. There isn't enough information in the problem statement to be able to draw any inferences from the observed results.

However, surely if we see, say 100 heads in a row, it's much more likely than not that we have a double headed coin? But we can't quantify that?

"The gulags weren't that bad" is seriously one of the wierdest takes in the history of 2+2.

Sure. After 100 heads in a row there is a good chance you have a double heads coin, unless .5^100 is much much likelier than the chances you grabbed a double heads ie there was 1 double headed coin in a vat of 10^100 coins.

Makes sense, got it, thanks.

who said that?

incidentally, why do liberals love lying so much?

maybe liberals should work harder. scrolling back a few pages is too hard for these hard working capitalist liberals.

Some liberals lie, and some don't.

Incidentally, why do communists love lying so much?

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

When TD said that communism is worse than fascism, you said that was him supporting fascism. By this logic, when you say that US prisons are worse than gulags, that is you supporting gulags.

I object

You can't take a grounded statement as provided and infer the general case of: 'for all X & Y, believing X worse than Y implies supporting Y'. So you can't then deduce the new grounded statement in the way that you did.

You need to add one of the irregular logical devices such as 'reasonable inference'

I think I said the "track record is worse" (or at least that was what I meant to say). Both are abysmally bad in that regard, but communism on the state level takes the cake, I think. Which is tragically impressive, considering fascism (among other travesties) led to the single biggest war in human history and genocide on a massive scale.

On the individual level, I think people are very often attracted to communism for healthier ideals than those that attract people to fascism. I generally wouldn't worry if my neighbour called himself a communist, but fascists make my skin crawl.

Communism was around a lot longer - the not starting wars of aggression part helped its longevity. More time to do damage.

This is a good point. At an individual level, most communists are decent people, if a little misguided. Fascists are just evil.

My interpretation of Victor's views is just as reasonable, if not more so, than his interpretation of TD's, but "reasonable inference" is a subjective standard. Syllogistically, what I said was perfectly valid.

I'm afraid not. You cannot deduce the 'For all X and Y' from the grounded premise and hence you cannot deduce a different grounded statement as the conclusion. It's not valid

The cocnlusion may be correct but that's a different issue. I'm carrying water for logic.


Quite possibly. Reasonable inference is part of irregular logic. e.g

I inferred reasonably
You made a mistake
He lied
They're talking bollocks

Yes to this. It's come up before and there's much more sympathy for communists than for facists because the objection to communisms is in it's results not in it's intent.

So in communism the government owns all property and in capitalism you own your own property.....until you forget to pay your taxes.

I think the main problem with governments is they trend towards not representing the needs of the average citizen. This happens easily in communism since it requires a strong central government and limited individual rights to start with.

It happens over time in capitalist economies because the rentier class slowly buys off politicians and games the system. The end result of a capitalist 'democracy' is fascism. Corporations control the government and the government controls the people. That's where communism starts.

Human nature and the inability of people to govern themselves in a fair way.

LagTight is correct. We all need eternal damnation. That will teach us.

Itt not starting wars is a bad thing.

Well, it's a little selfish. Think of all the potential POWs who missed out on the luxuries of those sweet, sweet gulags.

Victor,

Admittedly I am characterizing your argument. What you really are doing is criticizing the U.S. prison system by comparing it unfavorably to Soviet gulags.

The current mortality rate in U.S. state prisons is approximately 0.3%. (Mortality rate is lower in federal prisons.) Most of those deaths are attributable to chronic and age-related illnesses, but 0.3% is still way too high. And deaths due to chronic and age-related illnesses are partly attributable to prison sentences in the U.S. that are too long, which obviously results in a lot of old prisoners.

But we have to keep things in the perspective. The annual prison population in the United States is roughly comparable to the annual gulag population between between 1933 and 1952. In recent years, more than 4,000 prisoners have died annually in federal and state prisons in the U.S. Between 1933 and 1952, annual deaths in Soviet gulags ranged from 20,000 to 352,000. Half the people in Soviet gulags were jailed without any sort of trial. And the percentage of political prisoners in Soviet gulags was of course much higher than the percentage of political prisoners in the United States.

There are ample grounds for criticizing the U.S. criminal justice system and the U.S. penal system. I agree that the U.S. historically has incarcerated too many people for petty drug and property offenses. I agree that U.S. prison sentences are far too long.

You can make those arguments forcefully without making dumb comparisons between U.S. prisons and Soviet gulags.

I was about to comment that those numbers feel an order of magnitude or two too low, but then saw the word "annual". Just highlighting that for anyone else who initially skipped over that word as I did.

I worked with a few old time soviets years ago. They also happened to be Jews which I think made them a separate class or something (need to look that one up). They didn't talk about the gulags but they did talk about the incredibly low standard of living and all in all general shitty lifestyle. Empty shelves in the stores (although everyone had money because everyone had a job) and things like a shared water pump for an entire apartment building and a general paranoia that everyone had all the time. It didn't sound like fun. In fact these were probably the most miserable human beings I've ever met. And they were all fairly intelligent and blessed to have got out and made a better life for themselves.

Can't speak for communism as an ideal but from the little I saw, it didn't deliver as promised.

That's me as well. I'm "Jewish", which I think basically means my parents were "Jewish" and their parents were "Jewish", although to the best of my knowledge, my whole family are and always have been atheists.

What a small world, sounds like you had the pleasure of meeting some of my older relatives.

+1

I believe there is even a Christian Socialist Party in Europe.

FYP