This is what has been revealed to me after my introspective journey into the unconscious, which is why, when a trans activist claims a trans person has an innate connection to their true gender from age 3, I can’t just read that and move on like other people do.

Gay males typically realize that they are gay between the ages of 8 to 10. Anyone telling you people can know they are trans at the age of 3 is full of it.

If there is no such thing as a “true gender”, which is what I’m trying to get people to realize, then we need to have a serious reconsideration of what we are doing in Western culture regarding the trans issue.

I don't think you are referring to an archetype that exists. You want to refute the person that claims one can connect to their gender soul?

Thats just strawmanning.

Please define transgender thoroughly then. What is the claim in its entirety?

What happened was twitter got swept with a fake narrative that there was a growing movement of people believing in compelled speech etc. It was amplified for various reason by various groups.

Part of that was the 'what is a woman'. We all got psyoped. Words don't have authorities for their meaning. They require context to discern their definitions.

What is trans? what are you meant to judge or argue? It depends...so you can tell us how you feel about different implications...

Some people have gender dysphoria, as I understand its a general discomfort.

Some people find it trendy to identify as trans.

Some people seem to be quite naturally close to neutral in appearance and demeanor etc. seem to come by it honestly and don't have strong or outlandish opinions on the subject.

Some people have messed up beliefs and identify as trans. You want to counter the people with messed up beliefs?

Trans activists make claims out of psychological and philosophical ignorance, and everyone else is frozen because they too are ignorant.

Then, others chime in who are so ignorant they can’t even decipher when deeper claims are being smuggled in. What a mess..

Ya but the archetype you seem to be meaning to make arguments against I think doesn't really exist. The one that justly physically attacks you because you expressed your gender beliefs and it didn't validate their insanity.

Those people are crazy here. Thats not trans.

Am I on point?

Craig. Id like to hear more about how you define self and when a sense of self develops and whether it changes over time. I did a little reading on it and many articles talked about sense of self consisting of several components like how do you perceive yourself, how do you think others perceive you, how do you feel about how others perceive you etc.

It I'm not sure that is the same sense of self you are referring to. So if you could elaborate a little I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

Yeah, I’m specifically talking about the self which involves the division of consciousness. It’s like looking at your self using a mirror. There is the self and the observer.

This self is different than the socialized self. The socialized self is in opposition to this emergent self, and it will allow itself to be taken over by other identities like gender, race, etc. It desires unconsciousness.

Actual self-awareness is phenomenological. It’s distinct from thoughts about your persona. This is the key difference. The self I’m speaking to is not something you think about; it emerges through relationship which requires that division.

If genitals don't define gender how does removing them affirm it?

It eliminates the incongruence between the gender identity and the physical body. Seems straightforward.

If we could alleviate gender dysphoria either way (ie counselling vs body surgery) would we argue which is the correct way or is it only natural to continue to have it and not alleviate it?

that's one of the big things for me.....

if you want to self-identify as a trans-woman, i am very happy for you (serious comment).... but why should the government acknowledge that in many areas after a few months of treatment?...

at least make it 5 years or something like that..... and not sure a trans-woman should ever be competing as such in top athletics competitions...

i hope i have the terminology correct.... a man becoming a woman...... doesn't seem to be that much controversy going the other way for probably obvious reasons.

the next step is simply self-identifying as black or native and then wanting the rights of those minorities (different depending on many things).... but prior to supreme court ruling, i should be considered for the 10-15% of Harvard places that effectively go to affirmitive action blacks

not sure if people have seen the Buffy Ste. Marie controversy.... born italian ( or maybe native but it's like she wasn't). spend whole adult life doing incredible work for native groups. maybe as much as any native celebrity ever.... adopted into a tribe BUT that apparently has little standing.... irony is that tribes with good revenue streams try to keep out legit tribe members so as to not share the revenue.

i think i know the answer to this.

do trans-genders claim that there is no male/female sex even amongst people that embrace that idea.

i.e. having a penis doesn't necessarily mean you are male vs. doesn't mean you are a male because either 1) no such thing or 2) doesn't mean everyone born with penis is male... not sure which it is.

Genitals are not removed and these surgeries never happen to those under 18 and very rarely for transgender people percent wise. These choices are considered over time in the most serious way possible between doctors, physicians, psychologists, and the trans person is left with the ability to make their own choices.

The genitals are not removed. Instead they are reconstructed to match the patients ideal genitals as much as possible. Cisgender men undergo similar penis enlargement surgeries that have higher regret rates, as an example.

is that true? i have heard many different things...... that age makes sense, although i think it is actually better for the person if the age was higher, but of course that would infringe upon their rights.

my 2 problems with much of this stuff is:

1) timing/age... appropriate age and appropriate time before you are recognized by society/government as having changed sexes (although are there sexes?)

2) and ties into #1 some... REASONABLENESS........... trans-gender sports and girls/women's locker rooms......... i keep hearing people who do 2 months (1 month?) of treatment/medicine and counselling/education (???) and then demand to compete in girl's sports or go into girl/women's change rooms. this is no reasonable

There are numerous medical sources that specifically address the removal of testicles during gender affirming surgery and reconstruction. They all indicate that the testicles are removed and the remaing parts are used for reconstruction.

Do you believe that is incorrect?

As stated, no.

My overall thought about that particular issue is that I am personally squeamish about surgery, knives, things of that nature. I am not a doctor. When I think of animals I like to think of cute animals. When I think of genitals I giggle. I think of genitals subconsciously as sex organs rather than reproductive organs.
I think the fact that penile tissue is used and often inverted means trans women who get these surgeries should be allowed to say their genitals weren’t removed but rather reconstructed. I also think these bottom surgeries(not the other aspects of gender affirming care ldo) should not take place until 18, but they aren’t taking place before 18 anyway to the best of my knowledge.

I also understand advances in this area are ongoing and maybe thatÂ’s fascinating, although my area of interest isnÂ’t the particulars of bottom surgery.

Do you have a photo, or could you even draw me a nice diagram of the soul, color coded as to which side is masculine and which side is feminine?

If not, I'll probably continue believing that there is no such thing as a soul. However, if I did believe in any concept of a soul, I would think it likely had no sides and no representation of gender at all.

Also, where was it shown that gender is associated with morality? I can't find that anywhere.

I don't mean to only be giving mockery though, so I will say that I agree with you that self-acceptance is a great ideal and shouldn't have anything to do with one's gender, race, etc.

I have wondered this myself, but also with regards to hormonal treatment.

My understanding is that anyone can say they are whatever gender they would like to be and their choice of pronouns, dress, behavior, etc. should be respected, regardless of whatever medical treatment they are given or not given.

I actually fully agree with this. Although as I noted in another thread, I do have a tough time calling someone who looks and acts like a girl "he", that's not because of any moral or philosophical objection to it, it's just because this is a pretty new thing for me to deal with, and I'm no longer a young person with lots of fresh brain matter with which to make new neural pathways.

But I can't help thinking that if everyone was accepting of everyone else's dress, behavior, etc,, without trying to put someone in a box, fewer people would feel the desire to change their bodies/appearances to fit a different box than the one people currently put them into. I'm certainly not perfect about this myself, and I do tend to put people into boxes, but again, I'm not young and I have had a lot of years living in a culture which loves to put people into those boxes.

While I don't think gender affirmation treatments should be banned, it does break my heart a bit each time I hear of them, that someone felt the need to change themselves to fit in a particular societal box. I wish more was being done (and had been done in the past) to completely break down societal expectations for people with certain chromosomes and certain appearances. I hope that at some point (though I know it won't be in the lifetime of anyone currently living) people will no longer even have a concept of gender to feel they don't fit into, and fewer (hopefully no) people will feel the need to alter their bodies to look more like those of someone else.

This is true also. Two become one in the end.

Morality is how to act. He described gender roles. In other words, how each gender acts distinct from the other.

Craig -- quit assuming the existence of a "soul". This is a concept that nobody has ever seen, smelled, felt, or touched in a tangible and documented way.

Within the confines of trans issues, presupposing the existence of souls can only obfuscate the actual factors at play here.

People are increasingly beginning to understand that society need not and should not rely upon the authority of a magical sky-fairy to order itself. Gonna take another century or so to get all the way there, sure, but we're on our way!

Actual, non-mythical trans people on planet Earth are being oppressed constantly. And, what's worse, many of the oppressors use YOUR SAME idiotic magical religious thinking to justify their oppression. Frankly, it's the same type of thinking that slaveowners used to justify slavery in the American colonies.

in which somebody who believes in a mother****ing SOUL castigates others for "philosophical ignorance"

even the world's greatest satirist couldn't make that **** up