Like to point something out, the connection of Tencent and all of these shenanigans. Tencent has a stake in Blizzard (Makers of hearthstone), Take Two interactive (publishes the NBA2K series), has broadcasting rights in China for the NBA, and own the largest texting app in China (wechat).

Most probably are already aware, but the circumvention of free speech by big business being influenced by Communist China is upon us, Tencent is a huge problem.

On a personal note, it's disappointing the game I play the most is now owed by tencent. Path of Exile.

Im of the camp that HK belongs to China, kind of like how Hawaii belongs to us. Native Hawaiians ****ing hate white people. They still are part of North America. There is a big difference between speaking up on our social issues and the issues of another country. We went through this in this forum already. Kelhus and I tried to do app sorts of deflection on certain issues happening here. Of course people care more about what is happening right under our own noses

I wonder why you don't use an appropriate analogy, you know, like Puerto Rico.


You can rationalize all you want. The story is the capitulation, and the chastisement of others who support it. Not necessarily them being for it, or against it. Besides you are shifting the context from this:

to this:


The capitulation to silence and chastisement and pressure exerted toward someone who did speak up for HK, is the story.

I love how in your mind, you think they really have no idea where to stand on the issue...

You keep making up other reasons other than them selling out to communist china. It's entirely about the money, and the Chinese demand for silence to keep getting that money. It's not that they don't want to talk about it, or dont care about it....they are silent because of the money. Besides, how many clips of Lebron do I have to cite where that excuse only makes him look like a bigger hypocrite?

Living in a country makes you support anything that goes on in it? That's a novel idea. Not that I live in the US, but your sentiment is wrong regardless.

But for me it is simple. When organizations like Amnesty and Freedom House tells me of systematic oppression, detained of peaceful protesters and torture of journalists - I believe them. When the Freedom House lists a fairly extensive lists of policies passed in China which has made it even more authoritative in recent years, and this is backup up by most other sources, this is solid evidence too.

When the Democracy Index by the Economist Unit lists China as number 130 out of 167 in terms of overall freedom and the regime as "authoritative", complete with an extensive report on the country itself, then I think arguments like "you can make any country look bad!" are silly.

And rhetoric devices like "that is out of context", "that is only to fit a narrative" and "straw-man!" are just that. These are not blips, mistakes or isolated events. They're systematic, planned and consistent.

Puerto Rico tried to get the USA to give them statehood so it's quite a bit different.

I didn't shift context, I'm just pointing out real world examples of people being extremely passionate about "concentration camps" on US soil, and handwaving slavery in quatar. LeBron didn't take a stance on China, he took a stance on Morey, you are rationalizing why he would do that.

Lebron took a stance that it was ignorant of Morey to risk the $ streaming from China, including a huge chunk for himself. Essentially supporting suppression of speech for financial gain.

I'm waiting for that quote, either apologize, show the quote or realize you were talking out of your @ss and stop commenting further

My first impression of China is an ancient country with thousands of years.

It's obvious he was being slightly hyperbolic. However, it's fair to say you downplayed the extent of human rights issues in China, especially when it comes to free speech. You did not even acknowledge the criticism I posted, which I think aptly describes your post, i.e. an ad hoc relaying of your experience, which closely correlates to how an elite is treated in China, and the lack of self-awareness of that cast a shadow on your motivations. You are looking at, and describing China with rose colored goggles.

It looks a lot like you are trying to defend China, without having to explicitly defend China, becuase you know China can't really be defended, if you ascribe to western liberal ideals, which almost everyone here does.

Either way, you can't be that sensitive to hyperbole in this sub forum. Just counter the claim, and move on.

I appreciate you bringing a level headed discussion

I'm not getting into the real life portion of things but I was research oriented news producer at what is quintessentially the most pro freedom/human rights/etc news organisation possible... It was banned in China and this was long before most were banned

Nothing about this is anecdotal from drinking beers in a bar full of expats it's data driven from 3 years in the trenches working in an office that I've already told you was bugged

The fact is any sort of non hyperbolic statement about China is so out of place for you guys, you're treating me like rose colored glass wearer making outlandish comments

It'sshotinvegas, if you want you can pm me and I can send you my LinkedIn, show you pictures of me with dissidents etc... I'd honestly rather not take it to that extent but am offering to to that.

To the thread:

Nowhere here did a say a single positive word about China, I just pointed out that none of you understood anything you're talking about and that leads to attacks claiming I'm the biased one defending evil and a chinese shill

This is my point, you guys would rather construct a straw man and attack me when I point out what you're doing than engage in a real dialogue over the issue... This is why we're treading water in rhetorical devices and logical fallacy while they exert their growing influence on the world stage

If you believe China is a problem you should at least attempt to understand it rather than spout nonsense that accomplished nothing other than gives you apat on the back and make you feel better about yourself for a fleeting moment

Had a good laugh at the post.

K

Good to hear, care to share what you found humorous?

The entire post was hilarious.

Nice to know buddy thanks, I wont ask you to flesh out a constructive response again.

I understand China, I understand what they do to people who demand freedom.

Your entire posting in this thread has been a defense of China, downplaying human rights abuses.

To a post I wrote stating that having these types of conversation in China would be illegal, you replied "not even remotely accurate". Yet there is clear and over-aching evidence that criticism of the party in China is very much punishable by charges of subversion or harming national security. And people do get sent to jail, they do get sent to camps and they do get tortured for such things.

When you downplay this. Call it "out of context", "fitting a narrative", "straw-man" or "not even remotely accurate", then you are very much defending human rights abuses in China.

If that doesn't sit well with you, perhaps you need to think about what you write, instead of demanding that people stop replying to you. You have used a lot of rhetoric devices in this thread, perhaps it is time you sat down, checked out organizations that monitor these things and rely on facts instead.

show quotes or gtfo

disagreeing with you is not a defense of china nor downplaying human rights abuses - those are not mutually exclusive

Downplaying is a form of defense. It's often a more insidious and effective one than flat out denial, because it doesn't flat reject facts. It just implies that they aren't damning.

"Unfortunately a hospital was hit, but collateral damage is inevitable in war".
"These camps aren't perfect, but they are necessary to secure our nation"
"Some innocent people will be arrested, but the system can never be perfect"

Now, if the debate is that China doesn't want to respect human rights or doesn't need liberal values, that is another discussion entirely. But entering that discussion without admitting what the cost of that is (jailing dissidents, torture, labor camps) is folly. We can't just wash our hands of these things and then start debating the Chinese political model.

I've quoted your posts in every reply to you I have made, and I'm not going anywhere.

You've called Chinese practices of persecuting human rights champions and jailing / torturing journalists "out of context", "fitting a narrative" and "straw-man".

That's very much a defense. You've repeatedly tried to marginalize these events.

again, quotes...

if you won't admit you're drawing conclusions rather than reading what I actually wrote then please stfu and gtfo

...

...


And yes, you have been adamant that you are not defending China. You just happen to just casually throw out there that pointing out that China does indeed jail peaceful protesters, China does indeed jail journalists, China does indeed torture people for objecting to the party and that China does indeed have massive labor camps... these are just things we take out of context, to fit a narrative. And apparently we're "babbling" and "pretending to care".

You might not like it, you might not even intend to do it, but you are very much defending China with this portrayal of these events as irrelevant and only brought up to make China look bad.

Perhaps you think the true mettle of an authoritarian regime is that everyone lives under the boot. That is rarely how it works.

see you can't actually find anything so now you're grasping at straws

a real man would apologize here or at least be embarrassed enough to stop posting

you're truly pathetic

Well, I see you found your story and decided to cling to it. That isn't overly important to me.

What is important to me is that claims that China's increasingly authoritarian regime isn't white-washed with claims about "out of context", "fit a narrative" or "straw-man". Because it is very much a country where your books can be banned and the rest of your life spent in prison if you dare offer criticism of the party.

And thankfully, even though apparently all countries can be made to look this bad, I live in a country where I can criticize both my own government and that of China.

I'm american as well you idiot... jfc man you've paid so little attention to anything I've written you think i'm chinese...

I give up, I'm done responding to you

i apologize to the rest of the thread for engaging with this simpleton and giving this thread aids - i'll still lurk and will answer any questions if my input is requested on anything like how to use chopsticks and silence dissidents... ugh.. i mean... err... eating hotdogs and screaming god bless america (yeah that's plausible enough)