Then you sir are an imperalist, intentional or otherwise.

Why would it be imperial appologism? I understand the history but taking history what it is you have a group of people who have a cohesive want. AFAIK there's no hidden imperial hand pushing them for what they want, so we should probably treat it like any other ethnic and political group. Treating them like that it's hard to say that mass arrests and crackdowns are justified.

I don’t care if it’s imperial apologist. I don’t care if it’s inevitable for Hong Kong to be ”mainlandized.” I don’t care if it’s unrealistic to expect Hong Kong to be its “own enclave.”

It’s a tragedy that one of the most vibrant societies with Democratic traditions (if not the institutions) is dying, being subsumed into, as another poster put it, the Chinese dystopian nightmare.

Just so I'm clear, your view is that the people in Hong Kong's streets advocating for local elections to select their governor instead of having them selected by the CCP are the imperial apologists?

Nope, try again.

Bro, try making an actual case for “imperial apologism”

There's nothing wrong with supporting people's rights to protest but all this talk of enclave of democracy is hypocritical bs. God save the queen 'bro.'

You are literally the only person in the thread to use that terminology. People are supporting Hong Kong's right to have a degree of autonomy and not be controlled/subsumed by the CCP. The fact that the historic reason for its current status is largely British imperialism doesn't make supporting the residents' current protests in any way imperial apologism.

I do support their right to protest, but more importantly, I support the goals for which they are protesting.

The reason why I am the only one using that terminology is because the framing of this issue is a purely western one. If you don't like how China runs their country perhaps you should take practical measures to assist them in making better choices, perhaps you should support better choices in your own country. If you flip the names on things it becomes very obvious the west is not right in this instance. Does that make China a wholesome grade a awesome nation? No but neither is the UK or USA.

Why would I care about the US or Great Britain when it comes to the protests in Hong Kong?

Because that's exactly what the crocodile tears regarding Hong Kong are all about. They are reminiscing about the good ole days when the sun never set on the British Empire and Hong Kong was part of the unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy known as the UK. You know, that land with a hereditary unelected ruler, true bastion of democracy.

You're too cynical. The British Empire is never coming back, clearly. And as a citizen of a country that fought a war to gain our own independence from it, I'm not nostalgic about its history. I just am in favor of freedom, political and human rights, and democracy, and between the protesters in Hong Kong and the Chinese government, I know which side shares my values and so am expressing support for the people in Hong Kong bravely fighting for those values.

Do you support the USA and UK releasing all of their colonial territories? When was the last time we fought a war centered around a former colonial territory? If I had to guess you didn't support that war but you did support the one before that. Do you follow what I am saying? In my opinion, the best chance to free the chinese people are supporting actual freedom within our own borders. Cuba could have been 'free' a long time ago but we have refused to do the right thing for more than 50 years. From our governments perspective and perspective of our 'rulers', it was always about money and control.


It's not cynicism to point out things happening in the 2000s. The west hasn't changed much in last 200 years and if people like you don't change your mindset, it will not change much more.

Don't have an opinion about UK colonies. If American colonies vote for independence in a legitimate way, then I'd usually support their right to secede even though I think it is probably a mistake.

No. You seem to be making a lot of false assumptions and so I can't really connect your comments to my own views.

I don't care. I'm not arguing for American or British intervention in Hong Kong. I'm supporting the desire of Hongkongers for freedom, human rights, and democracy. I don't think they'll get those from the CCP.

Good.

Did you support the war in Iraq or war in Afghanistan? Hint, they are both former UK colonies.



You don't care about 'freedom' in Cuba but you do in HK? Why is that?

I didn't support either of those wars (although I am more willing to countenance disregarding Taliban sovereignty now than I was at the time).

No, I don't care about whatever point you're making about Cuba until you show how it is relevant to the situation in Hong Kong (I'm also struggling to parse your argument here - Cuba is not a US colony). I support democracy, human rights, and freedom for Cubans as well as Hongkongers.

Quite simply, HK is a contiguous part of China. While rights there are unfortunate, it is not really any different than the rest of China. Cuba is relevant as a comparison for how we (USA) fare in our support of rights and freedoms. We actively undermine democracy in Haiti and other Caribbean countries. If we cared for actual democracy in Cuba it would already be done. Cuba is in our backyard but we do nothing, and talk as though some sort of intervention WRT HK is a rational option. Its pure saber rattling. Perhaps if we supported democracy in our own backyard then we would have some right to preach down to the Chinese but we don't.

This is wrong. Hongkongers still currently have more freedom and rights than the rest of China. They are worried, with good reason, that they will become like the rest of China in losing these freedoms and rights.

I've already made it clear that I don't favor a military intervention by the US to support Hong Kong (or military intervention in Cuba for that matter). And when I become a representative of the US government, feel free to chastise me for inconsistency here. I support democracy, human rights, and freedom in our backyard, and when our government doesn't I generally oppose its actions.

My point stands then.

Okay.

Sign me up for the Empire any day of the week when it means free speech, being able to write on this forum without being arrested and not being sent to concentration camps for having political opinions.

I'll leave you to enjoy your moral superiority over supporting a regime where us two having this discussion would be illegal.

According to polls, I think something like only 20% of Hong Kongers aged between 16 and 30 even consider themselves "Chinese."

This is starting to smell like the beginnings of what could become a Northern Ireland styles "Troubles" situation. The difference is the CCP won't hold back.

Its pretty remarkable to see people even hesitate to support the HK protesters. They are actually fighting fascism. They have started spraying protesters with blue water so they can pick them out and beat them up/arrest them when they get separated from the crowd. China is a pile of trash compared to HK. They are facing a nightmare. It looks like they winning for now but it must be terrifying