I rarely start threads but I'll just say it here: the current Chinese regime is evil.

It's running concentration camps that amount to ethnic cleansing and systematic genocide.

Some articles on the mass detentions:

CNN goes to Xinjiang and sees the mass detention camps in plain sight, along with mass state surveillance
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/08/asia/...ntl/index.html

Bunch of others
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/chi...ghurs-xinjiang
https://www.newsweek.com/china-re-ed...-islam-1417622

China's official line is they are trying to prevent terrorist attacks. What people see in plain sight is something far worse.

At the same time, China is openly "sinicizing" the region.

From Global Times, essentially China's equivalent of RT.
China basically tells Muslim leaders to get in line or... else
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1134757.shtml

China is also openly encouraging mass Han migration to the region, old school Americans settling Indian lands style
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...stive-xinjiang

They also harvested organs from the political prisoners.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nig...na-11549411056
https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/euro...-2015-prove-it

The official line from Chinese government is they pledged to only get organs from "voluntary civilian organ donors" since Jan 2015. Kind of horrifying they basically admitted to state sanctioned organ harvesting up to that point.

Even the 2015 line is hogwash.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7107091.html

I don't even want to get into other ways China is openly challenging the global order and violating the rights of its own citizens. Just these should be revolting enough that anyone should pause before thinking about doing business in China.

I think if you asked Chinese citizens their thoughts on Trump they would likely have a similar set of fears.

My interactions have been exclusively with wealthy exchange students who live literally 20% of the world away from Xinjiang, but they have a naivety to them that I would guess is subtle brainwashing from the government. I don't think that is particularly unique though.

I don't have much to add about the specific topic of Xinjiang, but I could talk about lots of other aspects of China culture and politics. Xinjiang is literally the middle of nowhere, and probides nothing to an extremely pragmatic regime. I doubt the central government is putting much resources in the region. They are extremely autonomous

US locks kids in cages though. Lucky if they're re-united with their parents (ever).

When there is fortunes of money to be made the 'pause before thinking about doing business in China' isn't a thing.

grizy: If political candidates were discussing foreign policy in relation to China, what kind of things would you be looking for them to say? I'm just curious how you think the things you pointed out should inform US policy.

This should be in the OP:



Carry on.

How about Taiwanese... What do you think they think about Trump?

I have no frame of reference, but I don't think their government targets us with propaganda while I know China does. That and my personal dealings with Chinese citizens leads me to believe it's a reasonable assumption

Sorry if my refusal to throw inferences and educated guesses around like fact bothers you.

So if PRC citizens don't have access to an open and competitive media, what is your point about their view if the USA and Trump?

Are you implying that USA citizens have similar media opportunity as PRC citizens?

Most of our readily available media is biased one way or the other, so in a sense, yes. I am not speaking on the cited articles specifically, but in general. Also, I should have used Obama as an example, because thinking Trump is evil doesn't take propaganda.

And to be fair, I would agree that China is evil in the sense that they are power hungry and willing to do whatever it takes. The whole world knows what their potential is, and they haven't been a legitimate world power since the Mongols. But, they don't have the necessary experience or infrastructure, and they just steal ruthlessly. Backwoods detainment camps, migrating populations, and even organ harvesting don't register with me in the global evil superpower department.

Bias in "Our" Media is only obvious because you can choose your flavor at will, separately and/or simultaneously.

You really don't see that there is a difference between bias and governmentally dictated editorial control?

Of course I see a difference. Can you see a similarity?

Just an example: a common sentiment here is that right wing media out right lies to spread misinformation, hate, and misogyny.

China is doing the whole ethnic cleansing thing in Tibet too.

In an idea world, sanction. Short of that, force them to play fair when it comes to trade and IP.

Making it criminal to divulge/share critical technologies and manufacturing know how dovetails with the economic interests of EU, Japan, and US and is something all three have been inching toward behind the scenes slowly. Not out of some vague national security interest, mostly out of economic interests in protecting the IPs China has been openly stealing, often with state apparatuses, for decades. A broader agreement to simply make it illegal for firms to share critical technology with Chinese interests would work. A straight up ban on businesses stealing US tech (Huawei) is also probably necessary.

There also needs to be enforcement will. Obama administration has tools to block and dismantle AMD’s joint venture with Chinese firms (including an academy run by Chinese government) but opted not to. This is after Obama blocked sale of Xeon chips to China. It doesn’t make any sense to block sales of the chips themselves then decline to block a joint venture set up pretty much precisely to sell technology to the Chinese government.

The AMD joint venture in China is an abomination. That JV alone could have cut a decade off China’s technology lag in CPU design. China just keeps trying these mergers/JVs and the US/EU/Japan do block a lot of them but some slips through cracks, typically when something like Iran/NK negotiations come up and US wants Chinese support (or just silence).

I firmly believe globalization, trade, and engagement can promote mutual understanding and propagate the liberal values that most of us hold dear. But China and Russia are not engaging. They are just taking advantage of our unwillingness to call them out on their shenanigans.

But they got nukes so WAAF.

US is ranked 48th in the press freedom index. So it isn't as bad as China, but probably not nearly as free as people think.

The prudent tactic for China would have been to run the clock out on our current administration. China is prudent.

Here is the biggest reason why China is evil:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/he...ebt-2018-08-21

Debt means that you consume now and pay later, but that day may never come.

It's not much of a problem to let the Japanese wait for their money, because they lost WW2 and don't really have an army anymore. With China it's not that easy. Unfortunately China is a nuclear power. Not good!

Beijing Airs Anti-American Propaganda Amid Trade Tensions, Chinese Netizens Mock Efforts

According to a May 17 report by Radio Free Asia, the Chinese Communist Party’s Propaganda Department issued an urgent notice on May 16, requesting that CCTV and all provincial-level satellite TV stations air movies with anti-American themes every day during primetime. As a result, CCTV announced on May 16 that it would change its original broadcasting schedule for the following three days to air three movies, “Heroic Sons and Daughters” (1964), “Battle on Shangganling Mountain,” (1954), and “Surprise Attack” (1960), beginning at 8 p.m.

The films portray North Korea as a righteous nation and the United States as an evil imperialist, and contain scenes of Chinese soldiers opening fire on their “American enemies.”

Following the breakdown of talks earlier in May, state media had adopted similar nationalist sentiment in reprimanding the United States. “Washington tried to bring up terms that either harmed the sovereignty and dignity of China, or that were seriously unequal and unrealistic. Those requests have made the negotiations more difficult,” read a May 12 editorial published by the state-run Global Times.

During the past week, Chinese state media also frequently has run the slogan, “Want to talk? Let’s talk. Want to fight? Let’s do it. Want to bully us? Dream on!”

Chinese netizens were shocked that in this day and age, the Party would go back to the propaganda stylings favored by former Party leader Mao Zedong.

“This kind of propaganda made me speechless. In today’s world, they still think they can mobilize mass movement with such propaganda,” a netizen wrote on Weibo, a Twitter-like social media platform.

“They make China more and more like North Korea,” another Weibo user said.

How's that "what'about -ism" working out for you?

Quoting random people on Weibo means nothing.

The Economist summed it up best in an article I can’t be bothered to find: Chinese citizens don’t always believe what CCP says but they believe the CCP means to say what it says.

Apparently the NYT felt doing so (weibo links in first paragraph) was okay to summarize the situation:

Workers’ Activism Rises as China’s Economy Slows. Xi Aims to Rein Them In.
BEIJING — Factory workers across China are staging sit-ins demanding unpaid wages for “blood and sweat.” Taxi drivers are surrounding government offices to call for better treatment. Construction workers are threatening to jump from buildings if they don’t get paid.

With economic growth in China weakening to its slowest pace in nearly three decades, thousands of Chinese workers are holding small-scale protests and strikes to fight efforts by businesses to withhold compensation and cut hours. The authorities have responded with a sustained campaign to rein in the protests, and most recently detained several prominent activists in the southern city of Shenzhen late last month.

With economic growth in China weakening to its slowest pace in nearly three decades, thousands of Chinese workers are holding small-scale protests and strikes to fight efforts by businesses to withhold compensation and cut hours. The authorities have responded with a sustained campaign to rein in the protests, and most recently detained several prominent activists in the southern city of Shenzhen late last month....

Those aren't random people, but presumably the actual workers being mentioned or people taking pictures of them. What I mean is that man-on-the-street comments about government policy using Weibo are worthless as they are almost completely vulnerable to selection bias.

Okay, I'll take another stab at it.

The picture that article is painting - even though it contains several man-on-the-street quotes and consequently makes the article subject to selection bias - is consistent with a book I read seven months ago by eminent China scholar Elizabeth C. Economy. From The Third Revolution—Xi Jinping and the New Chinese State:

China’s blatant disregard for international law with respect to the Spratly Islands and Fiery Cross is disturbing.