I posted that because you said it does not exist.

And lol at my "shaming project". At least you are on note.

The 'fat acceptance movement' is almost 100% about trying to name any discussion of this societal challenge as shaming with the sole reason to silence it.

Nothing i have said is shaming.

"positivity" is a loaded word there as the people who use it pivot around its use and strawman it constantly.

"Positivity" as it pertains to what is loosely called the 'fat acceptance movement' and which directs pressure campaigns to media and language usage such that the first type of campaign put up in the UK is met with accusations that it is 'shaming' and is a display of 'unrealistic body images' and then is quickly taken down and replaced with the latter should NOT be indulged.






It is truly dangerous and wrong.

And that is what needs to be fought and addressed in open, honest dialogue.

It may be stageringly rare that the disorder of forced feeding because of a distored image of thinness exists.

Not sure your 'find' helps your case at all but I'm sure you can always find someone to say something.


It is but I'm totally with you if you oppose trying to silence people by shaming.

The trouble is that your idea of is to try impose your view of what a healthy weight is on everybody. For our own good of course - we do need to be saved from ourselves.

btw the growing trend you see isn't in a body distortion disorder as much as in telling the likes of you to **** off. I did point out that you should expect this and if you tell people they need to lose weight then you can expect a bit of light being told to **** off.

And strawmanning aside this is not a 'truth', not in the way most people use it.

We have not seen evidence that movements like the 'everyone gets a trophy' or the attempts to diminish 'competition in favour of participation' in schools years ago resulting in higher outcomes.

The strawman position will be to pretend 'competition is ok, I am talking about purposely using making people 'feel bad'' as if that is the goal.

Pushing children, motivating children to maximize their mental and intellectual self also has not been shown to be less effectual as compared to not motivating and just telling them to accept themselves.

Now you may say the above is also strawmanning as you are not saying 'don't motivate' and that is the problem.

Any attempt to discuss this topic topic is dragged into the extremes by reactionary folk (chez types) who know attacking it and anyone who presents a view will derail the discussion and make it not discussable.

The pressure on little kids to 'apply themselves', to 'strive', 'to do better', to 'find motivation', to 'be disciplined' and 'to succeed' whether it is in their physical outcomes or mental outcomes is absolutely analogous and necessary and not negative.

With a wave a strawman you can assume it is 'negative pressure' and give a reactionary reply to it while posts later when we spell out what that means you will say 'oh well of course no one is saying doing those things are wrong'. This is just the means used to shut down debate, even when you know at your core you agree, strawmen aside.

This by you is an absolute statement and it is WRONG. When anorexia exists at both extremes and you say it does not , you are simply wrong. And I have always pointed out in the 'extremes of both' in my statements.


Good for you now pivoting your position to 'extremely rare' you could also say 'in the extremes of both', as i do, but I know this is forum land so instead you will try to say you are right in both instances.

. No. You oppose me because you are the definition of those who try to silence people and an apologist for the fat acceptance movement.

If you are going to strawman me with that 'shaming' crap then expect nothing else.

You tried that upthread and then pivoted when challenged on it pretending I had changed what I was saying when i did not. It is just your nature to be reactionary and defensive, which says more about you, then me.



On that we can agree to disagree.

Your use of the word 'impose' there is just more coded 'fat advocacy' talk which saying 'keep silent, we don't want these type of views out in society'.

I absolutely do see a societal role to try and 'save people from themselves'. Public health, mental health, alcoholism, drug use, are all campaigns I think society has a role in promoting and educating people on while putting forth what are considered good role models and examples of is positive and success.

Kids do need to be 'saved from themselves' and pushed to maximize mental and physical outcomes. We SHOULD NOT set expectations that mediocrity and a lack of effort is as good as motivation and maximizing effort. And that should not stop with kids.

No you are wrong if you think force feeding because of a body distortion issue is a comparable issue compared to starving because of it. Totally wrong. Maybe it exists but if so its staggeringly rare

There was no pivot - why not drop the peanut gallery rhetoric?

lol. I'm not trying to silence you. I'd like you to be correct and get beyong your extremely weak analysis and patronising attitude.

Okay so all the sillyness was just perceived tit for tat by you. It really doesn't help your case.


Dont be silly. I'm very happy for views on health & fitness to be out in society.

I know you do. It wasn't a strawman

Of course and so do people with mental disorders on occasions. You confuse that with 'adults'.

Volia! I'm not trying to silence you - I'm just telling you to expect to be very nicely told to **** off when you try to impose your views on us. It's not as if you can even justify your view on maximization or even appear to have thought about it much.

It's still a relatively recent development that fat/thin have flipped in meaning. For a hell of a long time 'fat' was basically synonymous with wealth. Our idea of beauty today is somewhat different than even a few gens back as well.

Yes, my saying it exists in the EXTREMES means rare. It means they do meet and are equivalent in some RARE cases. Correct.

You saying 'they are not remotely equivalent' is stating they do not meet, ever.

So you now agree with my position that is RARE and only meets in the extreme. Good.

I know you won't admit it and will spin and pretend otherwise but words have meaning things that exist in the extremes only are rare by default.

NO.

I am telling you to **** off and will push society to not be silenced by people like you.

It should not be limited to kids.

Society DOES have a role, in my view, to educate, push, coerce people to better outcomes when it comes to the dangers of being an alcoholic.

Society DOES have a role, in my view, to educate, push, coerce people to better outcomes when it comes to the dangers of being a drug addict.

Society DOES have a role, in my view, to educate, push, coerce people to better outcomes when it comes to the dangers of sugar, fast food and terrible diets.

Society DOES have a role, in my view, to educate, push, coerce people to better outcomes when it comes to the dangers of being obese.

The shut up you are calling for is exactly what we see in society and as you do it is almost always tied to a strawman that such actions are shaming by default and/or strawmanning them to represent them as such.

Anyway. Moving on from the increasily silly cuppee stuff. There is a ton that can (and should imo) be done. This is not intended as an exhaustive list:

Education on health, nutrition and wellbeing
Information on food products about calories, additives, fat, sugar etc
Teaching cooking at school
Provision of free/subsidized space for exercise, sporting facilities etc.
Health checkups for kids with the potential for intervention
Addressing inequality
Free school meals for all which should be healthy
Designing towns/etc away from dominance by cars
Free treatment/support for people who want it
Science
Make getting old a more attractive proposition.

Most of this is being down to some extent but we need more.

This is not exactly accurate. And it was only really seen as a positive in females. that was due in large part as the women were seen as more likely to survive child birth and the ups and downs of feminine and food insecurity of those ages. And yes thus being able to eat more (and not be threatened by food insecurity) was seen as a luxury of wealth.

While you are correct that what would have been called rubenesque was seen as an ideal and healthy, that is what would be called 'chubby' in todays society.

Even the US average weight for females now exceeds what was typically seen in depictions as 'rubenesque '. Rubenesque was not meant to be the same as 'fat' even then.

Right,

I love how chez, echoes my lists and sentiments but all through the thread his message is shut up about saying any of that, but if forced I will say they are reasonable.

That is EXACTLY what this issue boils down to and what I raised with tame. If you remove all the strawmanning and the pretense over the misrepresentations any time and EVERYTIME this topic is raised, the agreements are there.

The entire purpose of trying to first paint it as 'saying a bunch of mean things' is by design to make this troubled ground to discuss. It is why reports of Dr's increasingly are backing off even treading into this area.

No it's your silly patronising stuff I always disagreed with. That and your shaming of people.

Enabling people to make choices. Improving their options. These are all good things and where we would (and should imo) focus if you weren't intent on the silly shaming stuff.

It is good we agree on the sensible enabling measures to help people. Much better if you dropped the rest imo.

I'm a psychologist, when I point out that comparing obesity to anorexia doesn't work, that's not "a strawman", it's a just a simple professional fact. Obesity is not a mental disorder.

Furthermore, if anyone thinks you can treat a mental disorder like anorexia by pouring negativity down on people, they have a lot to learn about the human mind. That's pretty much like trying to mend a broken bone by dropping the patient from a three-story building.

I realize we live in a time when humans are expected to have a range of emotion on par with HAL9000 and the popular image of success is not being swayed by anything, but that's horseshit. Barring some extreme dysfunction, humans are emotional beings.

Credentials aside I will bet you are wrong on the extremes of obesity AS I SAID.

I will also bet anyone you won't take that bet as you know you are wrong.

When you say the stuff i say it is not 'shaming' but when i say it is. Got it.

No you think adults should be told they need to lose weight - even by their doctor ffs. You think think they should be saved from themselves - that is bollocks. You confuse well being with physical fitness which is
nonsense. You also confuse anorexa with obesity which is dangerous bollocks

On the rest we never disagreed much and there is a very important politcal approach to unite about. I again suggest you drop the silly shaming stuff.

Like I said in my former post (if you can be bothered to read them before proclaiming how wrong they are), mental disorder can in some cases play a part in obesity.

If that is the problem you want to solve, I can pretty much tell you right now that you aren't on the right path, and really not even going in the right direction.

What i think chez, is that society has role in stuff like this...

YOu could agree to disagree with me on that and i would be 100% fine with that. I know this is opinion and people have differing views on gov'ts role in society (from libertarian to scoialist).

But that is NOT what you do. You instead label my belief and position as if wrong and 'shaming'.

Advocating for people to get better outcomes re alcohol, drug or food abuse are NOT shaming, no matter your attempt you say they are.

I have NEVER confused well being with physical fitness and that is a bold faced lie by you. I will send anyone $100 right now who can establish Chez lie as true.

I suggest you drop the lying which you are doing constantly. I could use your list above and simply label it shaming and it would be no more genuine or honest then you doing that my points.

On the first point i repeat again I am not referring to all obesity to having foundations in mental illness so it seems we agree. Not even the majority of it. Most obesity today is due to lack of good choices and discipline and I absolutely do believe society has a role in pushing for better outcomes in the ways i suggest (and chez echo's) and you telling me i am not on the right path, is not going to change that view.

Btu that is mainly because when we get past the strawman, most people (as chez did) actually echo my views. They just don't want them said out loud and will only begrudgingly admit them.


This is not a 'settled science' issue where you can say such advocacy and societal pressure does not have a positive impact over all and I don't think you would say that. Instead you would parse words like 'positivity' and 'shaming' to suggest we are saying something different.

to clarify my POV aside from all the strawmanning.

- i believe society does have a role in educating, engaging and applying positive peer pressure in getting better collective outcomes the areas of education, health (obesity), addictive behaviours (alcohol and drugs etc), and Mental health

- I believe it WRONG and very deliberately be done to target any discussion of obesity and talk of better outcomes as shaming. (see the Tess article above where she literally says people need to shut up about complimenting people about losing weight, etc) I believe those who do this are aware of the tactic and use it as a spear to try and silence debate in advance.

- I think in an attempt to be 'nice' others just avoid this topic while others jump to Ooboo this topic seeing that a small percent feel personally affronted by positive imagery ('beach body ready') or positive and re-enforcing talk ('shut up about it' as chez says) and accepting that to be 'nice' actually does far more harm to many than good.

But that's not really what you're doing in this thread. You're posting magazine pictures you complain are terrible and immoral, because they have big people on them. That's not education, I can't really see how it is coercive and as a push it's about as motivational as a multi-billion dollar company complaining about employees taking time off to use the toilet.

About 2-10% of weight loss attempts succeed over a meaningful period of time, depending on how you measure it. The reasons are neurological in nature. Gaining weight changes your brain, this will never change back and it will always fight to regain what it lost. Your personal trainer won't tell you that, motivational coaches won't tell you that and nutritional "experts" won't tell you that, because they a have a product to sell. A product where any malfunction can always be blamed on the customer. Perfect.

Most obese people are going to stay obese. That's not giving up, it's just numbers. Making someone miserable isn't going to change those odds, that's superstition.

An epidemic we actually can do something about, is depression, stress disorders, anxiety and worse ailments that people with obesity are more prone to get, due to how they are perceived and treated in society. And yes, these can indeed cut both your life quality and your life expectancy dramatically.

But that is a dishonest take.

Why does someone as smart as you offer a dishonest take? It is because you feel your arguments are not strong enough without doing that.


What I DID DO was post two examples of where the positive imagery was attacked as wrong, shaming, improper, etc and in the second case REPLACED with what is considered proper which was the posting of the obese ladies.

That is EXACTLY what I am arguing against and you are very deliberately trying to crib to make it look like other.

Ask yourself why and be very honest in your answer?


This lady was savaged and 'cancelled' long before cancel culture was a thing for this simple message. The message was called 'shaming', 'bullying' and much worse. Why?

Absolute nonsense.

I dont begrudgingly do any of it. I simply and profoundly disagree with you on shaming, patronising*, imposing silly stuff. Nor do I do confuse well-being with physical fitness or obesity with anorexia.

*Incidentally, for those who recall the great days of SMP, this came up a fair bit. I for example agreed with DS a lot but didn't agree with the patronising approach of deceding what was best for other people rather than enabling them to do what they want. I dont recall anyone going cuppee and not beign able to see the difference.

If I have a concern about body positivity it's that it will inevitably become just another way to market to people and commodify an aesthetic.

In terms of actually tackling obesity though, making people feel bad about their body is not an effective method. I have to drive to work, I spend a lot of time sitting down at my job, I eat a lot of convenience food because I'm not sure when I'll get a break, and it leaves me not physically tired but drained enough that I don't generally want to exercise at the end of a working day. No amount of making me feel bad about that quite typical lifestyle is likely to instigate a lasting change to it. I count myself lucky that I got into a niche sport at a young age or I'd be in a much worse state.

If there's a place to start, it's there. Making activities accessible and welcoming for youth is something with no downside and helps tackle the problem without the need to even talk about body types.