Personally I'm more bothered by the puritans who oppose drinking. Fat chance of them stopping me eating what i like.

But then I dont take personal affront at anything. You can call me fatty if you want.

Completely disagree. But I may be confused as to what you are saying here. To me this is the heart of the issue.

Anorexic women certainly are subject to the same body image imagery that obese women are. They both look at 'normal' sized women as the main cohort they do not fit in to and both struggle with that.

And people certainly do get shamed for being too skinny. There is almost no taboo to someone commenting 'oh dear you need to eat more' to a skinny person compared to saying 'oh dear you need to diet' to a fat one.

Put a very skinny kid and a very fat kid in any family gathering and you will hear the 'eat more' comments without reservation.


I do not know why you think what i said is a strawman when Chez did that very thing in this thread.

There is almost always an attempt to strawman the objection into something else that personal and offensive to silence it when what is actually said is said 'in general' and is 'fact.

Doctors increasingly say they will not even raise it due to this type of 'shutdown' commentary.

Many obese people have simply given up and accept where they are (which is fine) but they take that further then and try to shut down any messaging to the masses which they themselves no longer want to hear. And I don't blame. If I had made their decision or quit after failure I would not want to keep hearing 'You need to be healthier' 'you need to try'.

But too bad (sorry if that sounds callous), as you cannot allow those who choose a more destructive path (which is their right and I support that) to set the tone and messaging for the masses.

Society has an obligation to keep messaging and re-enforcing and pressuring people to optimize health, both mental and physical.

I fully support any individuals right to eat and drink themselves to death. Truly.

But this is exactly what happens when society gives up and simply accepts obesity as something not to fight.









This represents a vast and devastating failure of society.

Cheers. I'll drink to that. But the reason I'm personally more concerned about the puritan attack on drinking is that these things tend to be followed by laws. That actually effects the viability of pubs/brewers/etc that I take great enjoyment from.

On food I think the environmental/ethical food argument carries far more weight than the shaming health thingy. A lot of food is too cheap for that reason and maybe we do need to consume less of some things ina way which may well coincide with being thinner. Of course then we burden the planet for longer but even so.

I believe some points are being lost in our back-and-forth, and perhaps I've not been clear with my posting, so I'll try to give a short summary of my thoughts:

There's room for promoting health and the fact that obesity is unhealthy, while at the same time combatting the body shaming that results from the overwhelming messaging that comes from advertising, movies, TV, fashion houses, etc. They don't need to be mutually exclusive. And just because some people or groups go too far with the "body positive" message doesn't mean it's a message that shouldn't be delivered.

And that summary is in no way intended to encapsulate any one person's position ITT and contradict it.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

I do not believe in promoting 'body positivity' in 'society', 'by government', or in 'any type of public statements' for those on the extremes of obesity any more than I do for those on the extremes of anorexia.

It is a mistake, in my view.

What needs to be promoted is mental wellness and that can be tied to a message of how doing positive things such as educating yourself, getting fit and other measures will contribute to that.

It is absolutely a dangerous slippery slope that the more obese people others see in a society the more obese people you will get. It gets normed and most people, opting for the easier path, will be content with their weight gain instead of fighting it.

Those obesity change charts I posted above should horrify people. That change over time is a national emergency. And we are truly heading to a Wall-E world if we do not engage this.

It is wrong and disgraceful for the average girl now at age 20 in America to be an obese 170lbs when just a few decades ago it was a healthy 120lbs. AVERAGE GAL.

The point is that lifestyle changes to tackle obesity over meaningful period of time has something like a success rate in the very low single digit percentages.

So, if you have a lot of obese people, you're going to keep having a lot of obese people.

Thus the idea that there needs be some sort of constant derision or shaming is just silly. You're just making the lives of a lot of people worse for little to no reason.

I think introducing words like 'derision' or 'shaming' is done very deliberate and is wrong.

Is the pressure put on kids to strive and get their best result in school derision and shaming? Can it not be 'positive peer pressure'? Why not use that language instead?


For those who fail, feel that pressure and actually feel shame and don't see it as positive peer pressure despite the intent (some commit suicide) does that make it wrong to do it and should it be stopped even if the result is masses more children failing.

Respectfully I think history refutes what you are saying and proves you wrong.

Peer pressure in America and the 1st world used to be much higher and this was the result...



At every level, the message was 'being overweight was bad' and most people fought like hell to not be that person and the success was clear.

Ok, sure you can counter with 'what about those on the margins who failed?' , 'those who felt bad as a result of that pressure'?

And then you remove that pressure and you end up with this...



Some might say that is preferable because at least you no longer have those on the margins failing and feeling bad but I think the cost is far higher, at every level (not just physical health but mental health) when that much of society is obese.

And I absolutely think the pushing of mental achievement (scholastic achievement) and mental health on kids and adults to always be there best, push themselves for optimal outcomes is analogous. DIRECTLY analogous.

You have the exact same pitfalls or outcome failures for those who under achieve and are on the margins and yet no one argues (yet) that pushing the ideal is wrong.

Pretty sure food was hugely more expensive in the past but I was growing up 40 years ago and what I remember well was bullying and violence against fat kids - both from other kids and from vicious PE teachers. I dont recall much positive about it.

Also life was more geared towards physcial activity. Most jobs and nearly all leisure/social activities were far less sedentary than today. I had, as was the norm, 2 or 3 tv channels on a family tv and no computer - unsuprisingly we were a lot more active.

What about efforts to reduce and/or counteract the "body negativity" messages we see in magazines, movies, TV, fashion?

Please don't tell me you think this is a result of "body positivity" messaging.

It is deliberate, because it happens.

That depends. What kind of pressure are we talking about? I assume you don't mean from peers, which is usually going to be negative, but I expect you know that. If you mean from the school itself, that should typically be positive, but unfortunately there are some people who, possibly with good intentions, can very much end up on the side of derision and shaming.

Why not just use the language that fits? Positive peer pressure should be called positive peer pressure, and derision and shaming should be called derision and shaming. Both can exist in the same world, and even for the same person.

First of all, have you considered those for whom pressure of any kind isn't going to work, because the solution isn't as simple as eat less, exercise more? Secondly, um, isn't "some commit suicide" a pretty big problem? Finally, I haven't see anyone suggest "it should be stopped". You're actually the only one suggesting anything should be stopped. Promotion of good health should continue, of course. That's not mutually exclusive from a body positive message.

Wow, you actually are attributing obesity increases to the "body positivity" message. I'm not sure what to even say at this point. This is starting to become reminiscent of a Nancy Reagan "Just Say No" campaign.

I would not support, in any way trying to counter the information this person below hears with messages trying to reinforce to her that her body, and current body image, is a positive, in any way.

I would call such messaging dangerous and irresponsible and wrong.



There are all sorts of ways to support this persons mental health that are not reinforcing that her current body and the trend line it is on and heading down, are in fact, in some ways, positive.


And if you agree with that but then say "i was not suggesting that for the dangerously skinny but for the obese like Tess below, I think it is fine, then we simply need to agree to disagree.

I think it is significant part. Perhaps the most significant. Especially with young kids where you set them up for a much higher chance of failure for the rest of their lives if you do not help them build those disciplines young.

Becoming obese as a child is the biggest predicter of a lifetime of obesity and I absolutely believe parental pressure is the best way to engage it.

Sure it does.

Just as it happens to young kids who are incapable of getting the A's or B's or even C's in school despite trying that their peers get.

The answer to those on the margins failing and then feeling bad due to the pressure to succeed is not to remove the pressure from all. Not to remove the celebration of good Grades, a Valedictorian or other such positive images.

The school systems had a dalliance with that nonsense (everyone gets an A, no one fails) and quickly learned how self destructive it was.

Sure that might make those on the margins who fail, feel better due to a lack of pressure and not seeing those who succeed but it creates far more failures in the masses.

Does that mean a kid who tries and actually fails in school could not end up depressed due that added pressure and expectations, sure. Is the answer to remove from all, the expectation and pressure to apply oneself to maximize, NO.



I was pointing out how the words 'derision' and 'shaming' have been weaponized by an increasing MOVEMENT of body positive that is all about trying to silence even positive peer pressure by quickly labeling it as the former.

There is a real push to end messaging and imagery like this because it makes some who have accepted their obesity feel pressure and bad...



This campaign in literally had to be taken down due to an outcry of 'shaming'



And it was replaced with this campaign instead



That is insanity.

It is a very deliberate attempt to try and norm out the idea people should 'strive' for a fit body and instead feel comfort in numbers in an obese body as the new norm.

The more you reinforce that, the less people will fight it and it is clear line to the obesity epidemic we see exploding.

Again you are throwing out the striving for A's (the push to get people optimize mental outcomes) and all the good that does for those who do (less suicides, better mental health, better outcomes) because some who fail will say the added pressure of positive expectations actually contributed to them feeling worse in failure.

I would never agree with that approach. They started to try that approach i education and quickly saw the folly and pulled back but sadly we continue down that slope when it comes to physical health.





Absa frikkin lutely and no, it is like the No One Fails, aborted folly they tried with kids mental health.

Anorexia is a mental health condition that results in physical side effects. Obesity is not a mental health condition. They are not the same situation and can't be treated the same. Some people are obese due to medical conditions. which can't be changed simply by better diet and more exercise. Shaming them will do no good, and will likely have negative impacts. Why not try to promote a positive message while encouraging a healthier lifestyle? Seems to me like that is much more likely to produce results than telling someone what a terrible loser they are.

Same for working environments. I feel like most people respond better to positive feedback than negative criticism. Not all criticism is bad, but if it's constant with no positive feedback, what motivation is there to change or do better?

It's become pretty apparent we're never going to see eye to eye on this.

It just perplexes me how you can't find a middle road here. I'm not throwing anything out. I'll try one more time. It's possible to work on two things at once - you can promote messages about eating well and exercising, and at the same time work to reduce the stigma around not having the perfect body that is reinforced by the images we (especially young women) are constantly shown.

As I said, your approach sounds a lot like "Just Say No". it relies on a simplistic belief that anyone who wants to be at their ideal weight can do so with nothing but willpower, and that the way to get everyone there is to bombard them with messaging that fat is bad, skinny is good.

You carry on about this similar approach you seem to think was such a problem in education, I can only imagine how your head might explode if you learned that in many places, education is moving away from letter grades altogether.

This. A thousand time, this.

Why would it have negative impacts if it's a physical not mental condition?

My take is that it's a physical symptom (or sign if people want to nitpick the difference) with a variety of causes, many of which are psychological.

Re: medical conditions, nobody's body is more than 100 percent efficient at processing food. There is a good quote in the sports and fitness forum that goes something like "fat people who just eat salad and spend X time on the treadmill every day but can't lose weight simply don't exist". The problem is it's difficult to actually stick to it - i.e. is it's mental. I myself am obese as my BMI is a touch over 30, and it's difficult to stick on the right course. Societal expectations definitely help.

The reverse does occur, some people's bodies are inefficient at processing food - my student's father worked in the control room at Chernobyl and literally could not put on weight no matter what he did.

Anorexia is tyically a mental disorder because the sufferer is very thin but thinks they need to lose weight. It's stunnignly rare to find a fat person who thinks they need to put on weight. They may be ok with putting on weight but they aren't desperately trying to.

The two things are not really comparable. They can get confused because they are both to do with weight but that doesn't make the conditions similar.

Anorexia and Obesity are a spectrum or scale from <----- ... ----->.

On both of the extreme ends mental health conditions can and do apply.

As you move off of most of the more extreme ends and just in to being thin or obese in a physically unhealthy way, my arguments are 100% applicable.

Some people are also thin due to medical conditions which cannot simply be changed by diet and/or exercise.

That said the vast, vast, VAST majority of people lie in the middle and it is poor disciplines and bad habits and lack of food education along with some injustices in access to foods that primarily lead to problems.


Shaming is never the goal. But defining positive re-enforcement as shaming (as we have seen in the examples I show above) while promoting 'healthy' as the obese images above, is very wrong.

It is really kind of empty to say 'people respond to positive feedback better than negative' without looking at how things are being defined. I posted two 'positive' messages that were immediately attacked and demonized as 'setting unrealistic images that lead to people to feel shamed'.

If the very promotion of 'success' is conspired as shaming by those who choose not to fight the battle and would prefer not to be reminded of it, then we all lose.

I do think we are talking past one another.

Despite me repeatedly saying I am not for shaming (and I do not think many or any are) and what I see is an attempt to change the language and label things 'shaming' that are not in an attempt to silence any positive expectation pressure, we keep coming back to a point suggesting I am pushing shaming.

I would invite anyone to review my posts here and pick out and quote specifically what you think should not be said or done that you think ties to shaming, and lets debate those very specifically.

Additionally, these two charts identify very directly that when addressing the obesity epidemic issue why focusing on the extreme ends (medical conditions, etc) is incorrect and wrong.







In societies where familial pressure is still high, similar to where it was in the US in decades past, such as Japan and those in Eastern Europe, you do not (yet) see these type of obesity explosions.

Society and parental expectations and discipline are the #1 factor imo, in keeping kids from being obese. And if a kid gets obese that is one of the biggest indicators he will have life long issues dealing with obesity.

The post you replied to does not include the word shaming. I'm truly perplexed by how you're coming up with the idea that I'm suggesting you are for shaming, pushing shaming, or any such thing. But just to make sure I didn't miss anything, I actually searched the thread for "sham" (to include shame, shamed, etc.), and I remain just as perplexed.

Here's the point I'm making that I think is being missed, in spite of me having made it multiple times. Perhaps I can be more clear.

To put it in very broad terms, there is a strong societal bias towards being thin. And I'm not talking about for health concerns, but simply our perception of what is attractive. This message is amplified by the advertising we see, and the actors on TV and in the movies...we're surrounded by this message. And it's taken to an extreme for women when it comes to fashion, where every model was skinny, and finding clothes in a more typical or average size was very difficult - I'm using past tense because I *think* it's gotten better in recent years. Is there a positive side to this, giving people something to strive for? Sure. But there's also a significant downside. A $72 billion diet industry in the US (which would be a mix of positive and negative), plastic surgery and other procedures, anxiety, mental illness - there are a lot of negative impacts.

Does this mean we have to walk on eggshells for fear of hurting someone's feelings? Of course not. But I think provided a more balanced message that considers the potential negative consequences, is a good thing.

I'll go back to a couple of things you said in an earlier post.

About Maria Kang's ad - "This campaign in literally had to be taken down due to an outcry of 'shaming' "

I assume it was taken down because she was getting negative feedback, and not because she was forced to in any way. I don't have a problem with that ad, in isolation - that kind of thing will work for some people. But I can definitely see the downside. I'll give you an example - my sister-in-law is on her own, and has four kids ranging from 2-6 (twin girls are two). It's a very stressful situation for her, she already suffers from depression, and has overcome addiction (clean and sober for 15+ years). She's actually in pretty good shape, but I have no doubt she sees area for improvement. If I were her and saw an ad like that, my reaction might be "**** you!", LOL. Again, that's not to say that message shouldn't be allowed, but if that was *all* people were seeing, I don't think it would be a good thing. We all have different stories, are in different places, and being bombarded with nothing but negativity around not being in ideal shape wouldn't be a good thing.

And this was just before the Maria Kang picture: "There is a real push to end messaging and imagery like this because it makes some who have accepted their obesity feel pressure and bad..."

While I have no reason to think you're in favour of shaming, that comment is indicative of a theme that seems to run through many of your posts in this thread. The part I highlighted comes across as condescending and minimizing: "accepted their obesity", "feel...bad". In a number of your other posts, you talk about people for whom the messages could be a bad thing as a very small number, and the implication seems to be that they are simply collateral damage - not that you don't care about them, but that the positive of the message outweighs the negative.

I'll say this again - there is room for both messages. We can continue to make efforts at portraying all body types positively in advertising and media (IE obese people also need clothes and can be given positive roles in shows and movies) while delivering a message that obesity is a major health problem that requires hard work to overcome.

Let's say we run an epically good lifestyle changes campaign, better than anybody could expect. Maybe we get some 10% of people to make meaningful changes over the course of a meaningful period (which I think would be about 5 times current rates, so substantial).

That still leaves you with a bunch of obese people. Some continued message about "just do it" isn't really true. It omits the physiological factors that obesity causes to a human body and brain. We know the brain fights back, we know the body fights. We know it will do it for the rest of people's lives.

We know today that obese people often feel great shame, that many suffer stress and stress related diseases from repeated failed attempts to diet or lose weight. They live in a world that often tells them they are losers and failures. Many start to actively shun activities that would be good for them, even if they didn't lose weight, thinking that there is no point to it.

That is a very real health crisis too. That is what body positivity is about. The conflict between body positive and fighting obesity is largely imaginary. I'm sure there are some out there who think body positivity is about glorifying obesity. But that's not really the intent. The intent is to make people as happy as can be about their bodies. A friend of mine runs a clinic that (among other thing) aids people with body insecurities. And I can tell you right now, it's crippling stuff for many of his patients. And no, he can't just go "ok, we'll make 'em all lose weight", because he knows he won't accomplish that. He can try, but also needs to treat those that won't make that, so their lives become bearable and perhaps even happy.

Now, the point about starting with children is a good one. The best tool against obesity is pre-emptive measures.

Great. I do appreciate the clarifications. i think i was taking words like 'stigma' as being used synonymous or to denote that 'shaming' was the tool being used. I accept the clarification and understand your view.

Re this comment by me...

"There is a real push to end messaging and imagery like this because it makes some who have accepted their obesity feel pressure and bad..."

I absolutely stand by that view and have sited examples of it being true. There is an effort within the 'body positive' movement that wants to shame or make advertisers think twice about posting any aspirational type imagery about health and fitness that does well beyond trying to remove dangerously and unhealthy thin images from the market and instead replace those images with 'happy looking obese people' as the new norm of what should be considered healthy and acceptable.

It is dangerous and wrong.

I maintain, that nothing good on balance comes from posting images of near anorexic or obese people, along side any promotion of this being a 'body beautiful', or 'the norm that is ready for the beach'. Focusing on the few people on the margins who you say may feel bad, challenged or like they fail when they see positive messaging, ignores the multiples more who strive and succeed as a result.

You want every child striving for mental health and to optimize their education even if certain kids will fail (some devastatingly so, ie suicide) when they cannot achieve. What you do not want to do is to start promoting mediocrity and underachievement as the 'group good', and 'new norm' of expectations. What you do not do is take away the pressure of expectations. What you do, do is focus on ways to counsel and get extra help to those on the margins who will fail, without changing the entire system that helps multiples more succeed.

We see things very differently. Maybe we are from different generations as I am older and the expectations and perceptions where very different when I was growing up.

There was literally one, 1, obese person in all my travels through my schools up to University. I remember her clearly and could name her as it was such an anomaly back then. Sure there were more over weight but only one truly obese.

Good or bad the pressure on parents and that they put on their kids and that was re-enforced all thru society generally to not get fat was immense. If indeed that ONE person I know had legit health issues that prevented it, and she felt bad via pressure and fell thru the cracks that is sad. But we know for the vast, VAST majority of people that is not the case. It is a matter of desire and discipline. And while the degree of that battle varies between individuals it still boils down to that.

So I will never see the answer, to try and make the ONE feel less challenged, by such societal pressure to reduce or remove such pressure as I believe that is the biggest component of why society is headed towards 60% of the populace being obese.

And even if you post non stop 'body beautiful' ads of only obese people in 100% of media at that point you will still have a lot of those who "...feel great shame, that many suffer stress and stress related diseases..." as you say.

I would say far more than in a society where obesity is better managed.

And if you do not have that, then god help us, as obesity has conquered society as the not only the norm but also the expectation if we are at 60% obese and people are not feeling that pressure to get in shape.


I believe parents and society does have a role in challenging people to be their best and seek optimal results in education, mental health and physical health. I think the message needs to be strong and re-enforce constantly. It needs to be in peoples faces.

I believe a very large percent of society finds strength and success in that outside pressure and reacts to those perceived expectations despite a naturally tendency for many to just take the easier path.

I believe obesity, in particular, is a very slope condition. From childhood on, the more obese people you see, the less pressure one will feel (both parent and child) to get in better shape. And that, imo is what takes society from the 80's where obesity was scant to 2030 where it is dominant.

We did not suddenly get a bunch more people with physical ailments or genetics who had no chance. We got a lot more people who simply never prioritized or decided to take on the fight or gave up.

Yeah, it is that simple.

First let me say people are mean to fat people.

Over the years I've varied between 10-20 lbs overweight and 30-50 lbs overweight. 6' tall male.

At the lower end I was very active, everyone I met wanted to be my friend, girls were plentiful.

With health problems I would be less active and fatter, people were mean, girls nonexistent.

Late in life I truly became obese.
I finally saw the light and completely changed my eating habits.
Took 5+ years and I'm thin now, first time since I was in elementary school.
People are nice to me. Even at my age I'm getting a lot of attention from girls (women).

Wish I had done this 40 years ago. Don't think I will put it back on.