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Old 06-14-2021, 06:48 AM   #226
Ronny Mahoni
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

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And all the examples of money earning successful scientists, doctors, engineers and the push of EVERY child to strive to maximise their intellect and get good grades and the glorifying of those who get scholarships and grants displays an ideal of intellect few people can achieve.
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Imagine the disappointment, depression, other for the guy who just failed. No scholarship, no pro dream, and there he sees Michael Jordan on tv giving an inspirational talk on 'just do it' and 'how kids need to set goals', 'they need to accept failure as a part of achieving success' etc.
Nothing wrong with striving and achieving, but we apparently created a culture were not making it often leads to depression. #performance society

Like I said, not the fault of any individual. But, to say that its not a thing and fat, dumb, weak... whatever people should just stfu and go to the gym, library, get a better job or whatever is certainly not the solution (just as is cancel culture/turning a blind eye).

Eating disorder for example is heavily linked to psychology. The system of advertisments and the likes is rigged against a healthy lifestyle. Sugared food is much, much cheaper than non-sugared etc.

Im not sure what your point is. But, as long as our youth feels severly pressured by society to achieve, be good enough, look good enough, be smart enough... issues such as obesity will remain.

Indtroducing a sugar-tax for example would certainly help. But those that became obese before for other reason but sugar-addiction, i.e. psychological issues will only end up seeking other means to cope such as drugs, violence or domestic abuse.
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Old 06-14-2021, 07:50 AM   #227
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

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Dove has done many 'Real Beauty' campaigns which i think are great.


These women can generally be healthy across this range of sizes.

As I was googling this I saw dozens of their similar campaign ads and while there where a few that had women I think were too obese to be in the ad generally, most were ok.

What I did not see was one single of their ad's with a woman painfully skinny, Not just thin, but the type of skinny that one would look at think she was near anorexia even if she had no such condition.

Society is pretty clear to not celebrate or glorify or normalize that outside the heroin chic phase in fashion and they rightly got savaged for it by the media and people who recognize that imagery is not good to be normalized.

Honest question of why do you think you see the super skinny girls in ad's and imagery any more and yet obesity is becoming quite common? DO you think they are shying away from imagery that is typically hard to call 'healthy' on the skinnier end?
Almost every woman in that ad you posted would be considered thin by today's US standards. Certainly on the thin end of the bell curve. So while it celebrates "real bodies", most real bodies in the US don't look like that. But the overall societal message, that any body is OK and we need to accept ourselves as we are, I think does give people license to give in to laziness, eating for non-hunger reasons, etc. And it does nothing to address a major health concern.

Imagine an ad campaign that said people should stop being so focused on their heart health or blood pressure, how it's unrealistic and we should accept our blood pressure whatever number it is.

I saw Reese Witherspoon being lauded on social media for posting this on Instagram:

“Here are my tips on how to have the perfect summer body: 1. Have a body. That’s it. That’s the tip.”

I can see why this strikes a chord with women, as trying to look like some genetically gifted celebrity with a personal trainer and nutritionist is unattainable for most. However there is a difference between trying to look like an uber-fit celebrity as peddled by some magazines, and normalizing obesity.

Last edited by revots33; 06-14-2021 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:46 AM   #228
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4360060/Ethiopian-tribesmen-compete-fat-possible.html


Also, this:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/hea...ses-of-obesity

"The population of overweight Pima Indians was found to be more than three times higher than the U.S. national rate." - Keep in mind, my post was a response to the claim that obesity is a modern society thing.
The 'gene' thing has always made sense to me.

Evolution would obviously favour a gene mutation that would allow people to easily gain and hold weight if you lived in a region where food insecurity was significant and times of famine happened somewhat regular.

That more efficient your body could be at hording (fat) calories eaten and using them as efficiently as possible (minimal weight loss) would be the ones that would allow the most people to survive.

That to me has always been an obvious contributor as to why African American's have such a propensity for weight gain.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:52 AM   #229
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

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Nothing wrong with striving and achieving, but we apparently created a culture were not making it often leads to depression. #performance society

Like I said, not the fault of any individual. But, to say that its not a thing and fat, dumb, weak... whatever people should just stfu and go to the gym, library, get a better job or whatever is certainly not the solution (just as is cancel culture/turning a blind eye).

Eating disorder for example is heavily linked to psychology. The system of advertisments and the likes is rigged against a healthy lifestyle. Sugared food is much, much cheaper than non-sugared etc.

Im not sure what your point is. But, as long as our youth feels severly pressured by society to achieve, be good enough, look good enough, be smart enough... issues such as obesity will remain.

Indtroducing a sugar-tax for example would certainly help. But those that became obese before for other reason but sugar-addiction, i.e. psychological issues will only end up seeking other means to cope such as drugs, violence or domestic abuse.
My point is the exact same dynamic (the pursuit of excellence with role models) exists in education.

The exact same dynamic exists in sport.

The exact same dynamic exists in the arts.

With regards to obesity there is a societal attempt being driven by a very loud portion of society saying 'because those who do not want this or failed trying may get depressed/suicidal, we should/must purge society of any and all positive association to what would be considered success imagery or messaging and instead replace that with something where even someone at the most unhealthy ends of the extremes of obesity will feel normalized and comfortable and ok.

My point is that horribly wrong and dangerous.
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Old 06-14-2021, 09:07 AM   #230
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

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Almost every woman in that ad you posted would be considered thin by today's US standards. Certainly on the thin end of the bell curve. So while it celebrates "real bodies", most real bodies in the US don't look like that. But the overall societal message, that any body is OK and we need to accept ourselves as we are, I think does give people license to give in to laziness, eating for non-hunger reasons, etc. And it does nothing to address a major health concern.

Imagine an ad campaign that said people should stop being so focused on their heart health or blood pressure, how it's unrealistic and we should accept our blood pressure whatever number it is.

I saw Reese Witherspoon being lauded on social media for posting this on Instagram:

“Here are my tips on how to have the perfect summer body: 1. Have a body. That’s it. That’s the tip.”

I can see why this strikes a chord with women, as trying to look like some genetically gifted celebrity with a personal trainer and nutritionist is unattainable for most. However there is a difference between trying to look like an uber-fit celebrity as peddled by some magazines, and normalizing obesity.
The key to what you are saying is "by today's standards".

This quoted below is absolutely tragic and should be a 3 Alarm fire alarm for society.

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As of 2016, the average height for American women 20 years old and up is just under 5 foot 4 inches (about 63.7 inches) tall. The average weight is 170.6 pounds.
"AVERAGE" at age 20 is insane. Just as many above 170lbs as below is insane. And dangerous.

Society understood that post child birth, and especially after more than one child many and maybe most women would put on a substantial amount of weight they would not ever lose. Most people, i think were understanding of that.

It speaks to the vast majority of these women never building the disciplines and habits to take care of their health. And if you do not build those things when young it is multiples harder to suddenly develop them and stick to the later in life.

But at age 20, before the first child is insane. This speaks to us FAILING our children.

And messaging is a huge part of that no matter how much some try to deny or spin that. Young people/kids need constant re-enforcement, constant reminder, and to be constantly pushed towards better outcomes whether it be for their mental health, educational outcomes or physical health. And this attempt to purge society of such re-enforcements re obesity and label them wrong to engage in is, IMO, a very direct and significant contributor to the scourge of childhood obesity.
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Old 06-14-2021, 09:36 AM   #231
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

Average 20 year old woman being 170 lbs is insane.
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:36 AM   #232
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

And yet saying that would get you viscously attacked in many quarters.

Simply saying 'society has a role in pushing for better outcomes than that' and 'there is NEED to address this and arrest and reverse this trend', will be attacked in an attempt to stop such 'pressure' and keep such comments from the ears of the people who may fail in trying or simply do not care to change.

This is the crux of my issue with rationalization responses to serious issues around the idea that if it might offend or stress or cause issues for some, it should not be said or done.

Society is treading into very troubled waters by people who are well meaning but dangerously naïve.

"The road to hell..." is very apt here.
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Old 06-14-2021, 12:59 PM   #233
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

As with most of the other problems we have in society, it starts young. How many of you know people with children under the age of 7 who have cell phones?

Fat parents are raising fat children, and nothing about modern life is conducive to changing that. I roamed the neighborhood with my friends like a lot of the other boomers on this forum probably did. My parents would tell me to turn off the Nintendo and go outside. Don't come back until dark.

I didn't get fat until after high school. Realistically, what hope do all the fat kids have for making the right choice to follow the objectively more difficult path to healthy living after they're out from under their parents' roof?

Instead we're just widening all the chairs out in the world and promoting bullshit pseudo-science about being healthy at any size.
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Old 06-14-2021, 01:17 PM   #234
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

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My point is the exact same dynamic (the pursuit of excellence with role models) exists in education.

The exact same dynamic exists in sport.

The exact same dynamic exists in the arts.

With regards to obesity there is a societal attempt being driven by a very loud portion of society saying 'because those who do not want this or failed trying may get depressed/suicidal, we should/must purge society of any and all positive association to what would be considered success imagery or messaging and instead replace that with something where even someone at the most unhealthy ends of the extremes of obesity will feel normalized and comfortable and ok.

My point is that horribly wrong and dangerous.
The key difference between the parallels you are drawing and this subject is that weight is something that is visually obvious. Nobody is going to look at someone and think "that person could have been a much better musician if they had more self control and worked harder". This makes dealing with "failure" to meet the societal expectations completely different and means the comparisons aren't very useful.

There is nothing wrong with aspirational messaging but the "beach body ready" advert in particular has the fairly obvious implication that you need to look like this to feel good about going to the beach/wearing a bikini. It is pretty much an archetypical body shaming advert.

Fwiw I also don't think it's a great idea to portray excessively overweight people as healthy either, but that is a very different type of problem. As much as we talk about obesity being normalized, there are always going to be pressures towards being thin. Despite what some sensationalist news might say, most doctors will talk to patients about weight issues and unless society changes drastically weight will still be a significant factor in attractiveness.

P.s. This is a bit pedantic but the sort of thing that annoys me - while the average weight for a 20 y.o. woman being 170lbs is definitely crazy that doesn't mean there are as many women over 170 as below. In fact there is almost certainly a fairly large majority under 170 because of the nature of weight distributions (overweight people will generally be further away from the median than underweight people will be and that drags the mean up).
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:22 PM   #235
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Re: Challenges surrounding obesity (excised from Covid-19 thread)

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The key difference between the parallels you are drawing and this subject is that weight is something that is visually obvious. Nobody is going to look at someone and think "that person could have been a much better musician if they had more self control and worked harder". This makes dealing with "failure" to meet the societal expectations completely different and means the comparisons aren't very useful.

There is nothing wrong with aspirational messaging but the "beach body ready" advert in particular has the fairly obvious implication that you need to look like this to feel good about going to the beach/wearing a bikini. It is pretty much an archetypical body shaming advert.

Fwiw I also don't think it's a great idea to portray excessively overweight people as healthy either, but that is a very different type of problem. As much as we talk about obesity being normalized, there are always going to be pressures towards being thin. Despite what some sensationalist news might say, most doctors will talk to patients about weight issues and unless society changes drastically weight will still be a significant factor in attractiveness.

P.s. This is a bit pedantic but the sort of thing that annoys me - while the average weight for a 20 y.o. woman being 170lbs is definitely crazy that doesn't mean there are as many women over 170 as below. In fact there is almost certainly a fairly large majority under 170 because of the nature of weight distributions (overweight people will generally be further away from the median than underweight people will be and that drags the mean up).
Totally disagree.

Hand waving away the serious consequences many young people deal with when they fail at those other areas is just not right, especially when they do lead to suicide and other issues with those kids in those areas too.

To casually say 'oh it is not visible thus not the same' or 'worth the same consideration' is something we will have to adamantly agree to disagree over.

Each one has DIFFERENT areas of 'pressure', 'expectations' and other but the failure in what they perceive society expects of them or their own expectations for themselves is very similar in the way it plays out in consequences for all of those mentioned.

If showing a super fit body in an ad targeting a segment of people who do want to achieve that goal and are motivated by it is so wrong, because it may not be applicable to others (or all) then so to is every aspirational campaign (Be like Mike) where the chances of being the next Michael Jordan are even worse than getting into shape like that gal is. So to are the educational campaigns that use Einstein and other such figures as aspirational.
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