If you check out the comments on that twitter post you can instantly see people being shouted down if they suggest obesity correlates with 'unhealthy'. You have all sorts of posters saying I am considered obese but my doctor tells me I am healthy and i can do more exercise than most thinner people.


That misses the point. No one is saying every over weight person is necessarily in worse shape than every thinner person. What society needs to say, and to pressure, is that everyone needs to be more focused on fitness.

This obesity epidemic needs to be turned back as people are naturally lazy and so the more you simply accept obesity as the new normal, the worse it is.

When I was going through school there was literally one obese person. A girl named Sharon and i still remember her last name as it was so rare back then. Ya a few chubby folk but only one who was obese.

An average for woman 20 years old was 5'4 and 120lbs and for men it was 5'9" and 175lbs. Today that average is 170lbs for women and 195lbs for men.

A 5'4" woman at 175lbs is obese and at age 20 that is dangerous as yu only tend to get bigger with age and especially after child birth.

Men who are not yet obese at age 20 tend to catch up to their partner very quickly after marriage.

Pointing out the health risks surrounding obesity doesn't really have anything to do with "body positivity". Pointing out the increased dangers obesity will lead to from Covid-19 is undoubtedly ethically correct. It will allow people with increased risk to take better pre-cautions, for example.

But a lot of people bully and harass people for being obese, which is not only wrong on an ethical level, but neither will it solve squat.

Positive messages will perhaps be more motivational, but at the same time we need to realize that the behaviors that caused obesity are not only incredibly difficult to change in and of themselves, but in addition physiological changes to your body and brain will literally fight you for the rest of your life. As human beings, we are built to regain whatever fat we bulk up and later lose. It was a good mechanism 20,000BC, but perhaps not so much in the developed world anno 2021. Even with constant reinforcement, very few people will manage to sustain these changes over time. Knowing that, there should definitely be a place for body positivity too.

So, generally the best way to fight obesity (on the population level) is to do so pre-emptively.

I think you're sort of missing the point as to why it was felt there was a need for a body positivity message in the first place. Society often is delivering the message that "every over weight person is necessarily in worse shape than every thinner person". Of course it's possible that the pendulum swings too far the other way, and the Cosmo pictures you posted could be a good example of that, but that doesn't mean the entire body positivity message needs to be thrown out.

I'm not shouting you down but I profoundly disagree. Anyone telling me I have some 'need' or responsibility or duty to maximise my life expectancy or some such - they can, very politely, **** off. Life is for living not for enduring and a healthy life is a good life.

Yes my life choices have some impact on others life choices but it's incomparable to covid where we all have a lot of redponibility for not infecting other people against their choices.

You can if you want. I think I need to focus more on making tastier curries and that people would be ahppier if they focused more on quality.

What i see has happened in this debate and especially in much of the western world, is that a lot of people (not saying you) conflate a person 'feeling bad' as a result of pressure and failure with that being something wrong or bad or not nice that the person applying the pressure did.

Parents do not and should not stop pushing their children to develop their minds and mental health, despite the fact some might fall through the cracks and feel disappointment and sham at failing the expectations.

However when it comes to physical development and health many seem to think they should be supportive, regardless out of a desire to avoid burdening those who fail with addition of failed expectations.


I recognize it sucks and can add additional challenges to anyone who fails (either scholastically or physically) if the burden of 'failed expectations' is added on but what it does result in is vast amounts more success.

Not that many generations ago the idea of an obese child was seen as shameful parenting, much like having an obese pet it. Everyone knew it was the parents lack of discipline that caused it. it was seen as a lack of care and love for the child. And thus childhood obesity was truly limited to only that minuscule part of the population with genetic issues. That is a good thing.


Today you still see that in some more traditional societies like the Japanese and Eastern Europeans where the kids tend to have comparatively little obesity.


it is a very slippery slope, due to human nature, to removing that societal peer pressure and instead saying 'you are beautiful as obese as you are'. Do you want to call an obese person 'ugly', NO. Do you want their self esteem impacted such that they get worse, NO. But do you actually help the group 'them' more by removing the pressure societal expectations and pressure can apply with a consistent message of 'you are not healthy', 'this is not the norm or to be celebrated', NO.

There has never been an effort (outside the shameful heroin chic flirtations of the fashion industry) by parents or society in general to try to make anorexic people feel beautiful 'as they are', despite them also having mental fragility issues that can be exasperated by the added 'failed expectations' and 'judgements'. Why not?

I think celebrating this ...



Is every bit as shameful as celebrating this would be...



Ultimately this the danger of lowered expectations.

The masses are failing when it comes to fitness and health and thus lowered expectations for all, makes it easier on 'me and my failings'. Suddenly my slight over weight acceptance of myself does not only 'not look so bad' but it starts to 'look good' in comparison.

It is so dangerous to see the curve so quickly move to a new normal of 20 year old young gals at 5'4" tall being 170lbs.

That used to be an overweight, post pregnancy mother who needed to lose her baby weight. And the line is moving up rapidly as young men adapt, since that is all they have to choose from and now all like their women 'thicc'.

At 20 a 170lbs is manageable for a young gal, but post pregnancy and with the upward pressure of weight gain that comes with age that 170lbs balloons up and is very dangerous.

I'm excising this discussion from the Covid-19 thread, since it has evolved into an issue of its own.

I disagree. I think that is how many try to reflexively define it as if it some type of competition but I have not generally seen that. I don't recall that contrast ever being the focus or message.

The message i used to see historically was 'being over weight is not good' and not 'everyone who is not overweight is automatically healthier than everyone who is'.

I think over weight people feel overly focused upon and in the spotlight because obesity is very visible and cannot be hidden. So they never feel they get a break from judgement and thus the push back.

Let me ask you if you would extend that 'body positivity' movement to young gals dealing with anorexia such as the one I posted above and if not, why not? Or do you think they need reality and tough medicine (truth), and if so, why?

thx. I was just going to apologize in the other thread for the divergence but it started on topic.

I fully support individualism and the ability to do whatever you want, including self destructive things as long as you are not hurting anyone else.

That said you conflating issues.

Saying to society overall that it is good and positive to get educated and to maximize mental health and to push yourself in that regards is positive even if certain individuals think 'f-you, I am content doing nothing and stewing in depression and underachievement'.


Society should and needs to use positive expectations and peer pressure to get as many people on the path to mental achievement and health and those people, by and large will appreciate society for it even as they never really realize the role that pressure played.


Somehow people see that so much clearly when it comes to mental achievement and health but they divert when it comes to physical health.

Wanna stop being obese? Walk don't drive, drink only water - no alcoholic, fruit juice or soda - exercise and don't eat so much, the last one being the key. Stop eating dinner and embrace feeling hungry.

I'm not conflating issues. Education, information etc is all good. You equating being the 'correct' weight' with maximising mental health is lazy thinking and quite probably wrong. But I only say '**** off' of you're telling me I need to do soemthign or have some societial responsibiltiy to do what you want.

No it doesn't and shouldn't. I dont deny the 'role model' point but strongly oppose the idea we have some repsonsibiltiy to be role models for society. It's an appalling idea.

Because we know there's a lot more to life than maximising physical health. And that maximising physical health has costs to the rest of our well-being.

I think it is awesome if people manage to change their life for the better. But, the success rate for lifestyle-changes to combat obesity are abysmally low. So there is no "just", and the debate around obesity should stop pretending it is.

Your brain is geared to regain whatever fat it lost. Doesn't matter if it was 10 years ago, it wants it back. In almost all cases, it will get it back.

Facebook posts 2 months later or news reports about "1-year progress" look pretty, but it's largely nonsense. Give people the numbers on people who manage to change their entire life and what that actually required, so they can walk into such attempts armed with a realistic expectation of what they will face. Few people will run marathons just because they are told it's "just a quick run around the block".

Good


Hmmm, never said or suggested "correct weight", strange that you are trying to change what I said to then be outraged by your own imposition.

If you change it back to what I actually said and equated I meaning I am right.

Mental health and physical health do equate (no not 'right weight').

Hmmm, never said or suggested that.

But if you deal with what I actually said that society has a role in re-enforcing mental and physical health, I stand by that.

Hmmm, never said or suggested that.

But again as above if you deal with what I actually said that society has a role in re-enforcing mental and physical health, I stand by that.

Indeed and I said as much when you are speaking individually. But obesity. like mental health from a societal standpoint cannot be handled solely from an individualistic approach and in fact that would be futile.

Society and the gov't needs to re-enforce generalities and truisms that are true for almost all while recognizing exceptions occur but not allow them to drive the point or deny it.

Mental health is good. Physical health is good. Even if any individual would say 'f*ck it, my life" to both.

The majority of people are generally programmed to fail when it comes to weight control and loss.

Also our approach is generally very wrong.

For the vast majority of people weight gain is not a function of a genetic disorder and is simply an imbalance between calories consumed versus calories burned. And while that is kind of a duh statement what people need to realize is how minor that shift needs to be to make real change in their lives.

For the vast majority of people weight gain is generally a slow and gradual creep over the space of years. 6-12 lbs a year for a few years straight hardly noticed until they see before and after pics and suddenly they are 20 or more pounds heavier then they were just a few years ago.

That then leads to the worst thing which is a 'diet' to rapidly lose the weight. A radical change in diet and depriving the body which often does work but fails after.

Why does it fail? Because the weight is lost in extreme calorie deficit that cannot be sustained and the person is not aware of what they should be eating to maintain the new normal.


Instead I always advise people to take the weight off the same way they put it on. 6-12 lbs a year over multi years.

That mean 0.5 to 1lb a month. That is all. That means take your exact diet as it is today and your exact exercise as it is today that maintains your current weight and change it in such a minor way that you should never notice or ever feel a calorie deficit.

Replace soda or juice with water. That is all. Or walk (exercise) more with no change in diet. That is all. 0.5lbs to 1lb is nothing. This will establish a new normal lower weight based on your changes and once achieved you make a similar type adjustment again. And again.


But we are wired to want a quick fix, which causes YoYo weight issues and worse. Our bodies evolved to hold weight efficiency as a lack of calories and famines were far more deadly to us historically. When you do severe diets you re-enforce to your body that 'we are in time of feminine again' and trigger it to be ready to grab and store calories again ASAP.

From the political perspective, the most effective thing to do would be to stop more obesity before it occurs. That is a much easier task than removing it afterwards. Educational programs, physical fitness programs, food regulations, tax regulations (punish causes, reward healthier alternatives), labelling regulation, information campaigns.

The limit is really at your limit for state intervention. Some want none, some want a lot.

Money and costs isn't really an issue. Obesity has an enormous price-tag for developed countries. Even small inroads would likely pay enormous dividends over the long run.

I don't think efforts to "cure" existing obesity needs to stop, there is something to be said about not leaving people behind. But it's not really a cost-efficient solution. The rate of success is just too low, so it shouldn't be the primary political tool.

[QUOTE=Cuepee;56817499]Hmmm, never said or suggested "correct weight", strange that you are trying to change what I said to then be outraged by your own imposition./ Sure you are:

You may include a bit of range but you are arbitrating on what is 'correct' weight. And the rest of what I said follows

The need to reinforce 'common sense' and even good science/philosophy if that ever rears its head is extremely dubious. Some do support paternalism but very bad idea imo.

Indeed but physical health and mental health (including quality of life) are not generally aligined beyond some minimal points. The huge mistake is thinking that your view of physical heath aligns with other people mental health.

In countries that have Universal Healthcare the largest burdens on the system are Old age and obesity.

First it was for fat people " Your Beautiful" Now its "Your Healthy"

Sadly no Universal Health Care system actually talks about Health other than Do not Smoke .
Doctors can not even tell parents "Your Kid is fat"

I know myself I am taking it upon myself to lose the weight as it is the one underlying condition I have that id I did get Covid .... Asthma as well but never bugs me. 20 lbs will put me in a great place if I do catch it. Personally I do not believe the vaccines will be the cure all with all these new strains

This is correct.

I fully support aggressive sin taxes (similar to alcohol and cigarettes taxes) on things like Sugar and other unhealthy items with the money being earmarked for education and healthcare.

that is where my State intervention would end.

The biggest problem with this topic is that some have learned to attack anyone who would raise it as the problem.

How dare you pretend you can define 'health' or 'obesity'? How dare you pretend you can speak for me or my desire or my health.

Which simply misses the point and is not what anyone is saying.

Saying obesity is a problem and its reached epidemic proportions is simply a truism. Saying society has an obligation and role in trying to combat this epidemic is also a truism.

But some will try to deflect that and instead pretend its a personal attack as personal attacks are mean and get shut down.

And that is a big part of why this problem is so hard to engage.

See above.

Acknowledging facts (obesity is a problem) is not trying to 'arbitrate on what is the correct weight for any individual.


I can and do say 'obesity is a problem' and stand by it as correct.

Another issue that must be addressed is the amount of obesity in the poor. Its just cheaper to eat unhealthy.

Your position is improving and we may even comverge at some point.

Much better now than this sort of stuff:

Something else about being poor is that being old can really suck. It can greatly shift the equation on trying to live longer vs enjoying life while you're young(ish).

So let's make people better off and provide a much better quality of life for older people.

Idk, I mean a single cheeseburger costs less than a double, small fries less than a large.

I mean I agree, but at the same time that's not totally it imo. I could for example get whatever body fat % I wanted both through only fast food or only Whole Foods. Though it takes more knowledge and self control to do it at fast food places.

Cheap food tends to be highly caloric, low volume, highly pleasurable, and unsatiating.

Why was this so much less of a problem 60 years ago? I mean cheeseburgers and fried chicken existed right? And it's not like more* people were counting calories back then.
Idk, less free time to cook, more opportunities/ease of fast food, accepted increase of portion sizes?

Found this graph from Layne Norton interesting because Sugar is often pointed at as the/one culprit.