I agree with what you say entirely above. You are not addressing this current issue.

Curious what you think about my prior post and this clear slippery slope we are on. We are building a populace with increasing comorbidities. As our tech gets better and our drugs to deal with issues of obesity better at keeping people alive we are increasingly a more fragile society, as whole far more susceptible to any future virus that has similar profiles of attacking those comorbidities.


Is it fair to demand the shrinking percent of otherwise healthy to step up and med up to protect the percent that won't take actions to protect themselves?

And we’ve already spent billions on obesity education, prevention and mitigation from a public health standpoint over the last few decades. If just suddenly telling people that obesity makes it more likely to die of covid made a huge difference, it would have already worked for the past 40 years as everyone has been told obesity greatly increases the risk of heart disease snd certain cancers.

Yes, healthy people need to get vaccinated. This isn’t complicated.

I mean I guess you can make a broader argument about medical spending, and how much those who keep themselves healthy should be responsible for paying for the medical care of those with self-inflicted health issues due to obesity, smoking, etc. That has been a debate for a long time. Perhaps govt financial incentives to be healthy are worth exploring (similar to paying the vaccine hesitant to get vaxxed).

But you can't equate a contagious virus with something like diabetes or heart disease. Yes, everyone should be vaccinated. Obviously. For reasons both ethical and practical (mutations that could eventually impact healthier people or children, for example).

The biggest risk factor by far for Covid is age, so unless we're going to blame the elderly for being old, it's pretty obvious we are all in this together. Fat, skinny, young, old, whatever.

to hand wave that away as 'not complicated' is the perfect answer as that is the type of casual dismissal I expect will happen.

I raise the issue that as this trend continues and if increasingly the population is more and more obese with ever managed via medications, comorbidities, and that makes that population increasingly vulnerable to any XYZ virus that comes along that everyone not vulnerable will be simply expected to medicate up to protect them.

This parallels when I was younger and had my first real brush with the healthcare system and had to have a colonoscopy type procedure done. I was both legit worried but accepting of it, and was joking with my, then girlfriend about it. She had zero sympathy, none. Explained how since age 15 she had things inserted into her body by doctors, looking around. And we laughed at my pain together.

The point being though that anyone used to such things is not going to care or think it is any issue to see others submitted to same.

Obese people and others are very used to taking any and all meds necessary to manage their lives with many absolutely refusing to do the minimum in terms of improving their own health to minimize that. And that is fine. Their lives, there choice.

But what we will now see increasingly is this call, and demand for the healthy to take any and all meds needed to protect the obese lives. Any complaint from someone who has tried to live their entire life as healthy as they can so they can avoid med's and is succeeding in that (they are not in a risk group for the new disease due to being fit) will be met with a 'who cares... take the meds that protect us'.

And it will be casual dismissal as you do, as they (like my prior gf) will not have any way to identify with that person, as they as a group have been taking ever increasing amounts of meds available to manage their own lives, ...so 'what is the issue with that guy', they think.

I am all for socializing the health care costs. I am Canadian. So I am not asking the obese to pay a surcharge for their care. I would not oppose some more sin taxes on certain foods but that is different.

What I am talking about is different than that.

I am not talking about sin taxes but sin medicines.

The reason covid was such a big was due to its ability to crash the health care system and the correlation from there to death.

If that was not the case, as we saw in countries with much younger and more thinner populations, the impact of covid was much less.

So I am saying if this trend continues and obesity continues to skyrocket as projected and as medicines to offset the detrimental effects of obesity continue to allow people to remain obese and manage it and live to older and older ages on this delicate balance, it means increasingly we will have a population, as they age that are riddled with comorbidities and super fragile to any new such coivd like threat.

Increasingly the real cost of taking increased meds may be demanded to be born by the healthy to protect this increasingly unhealthy group.

That should not be an easy question we do not debate. I get that there is a randomness to virus threats we cannot control and thus these types of extreme actions will be necessary but I am speaking to the other side where it is not the threat of the virus per se, but the threat of the virus to one group because they are horribly out of shape and now require the healthy to take meds to protect them.

It’s 2021 and ppl are still confused over how vaccination works, it’s amazing.

FYP

Don't entertain Trolly's comments as anything other than trolling.

No one is debating 'how vaccines work' and no one does not understand 'how'. That is a strawman troll reply.

The issue is that there is a reason why covid REQUIRES everyone take a vaccination while the flu does not.

Would it protect others if every single person was required to take the various flu vaccines each and every year? Yes. It would reduce spread thus reducing risk, thus reducing death outcomes.


But society balances that by looking at the death rate (IFR) and how meaningful a mandated action will be on the IFR.

Trolly wants to pretend that if a group contributes a single extra death that is reason to vax them all and it is simple as that and that has NEVER been the case prior in medicine of science. Especially when the vaccine or meds also do have some low percent serious side effects for those taking them that could kill them. It has always been a balancing.

It is very predictable with the skyrocketing obesity and people managing their health with increasingly compromised immune systems and living with a host of medicated comorbidities that the IFR tied to the Flu and all the Flu variants might skyrocket in the future within that very vulnerable group.

Does that mean and should mean that everyone not in that group, who are choosing to live healthier should then be forced to take each and every vaccine or medication to protect them, each and every time their life choices see them at threat?

That is certainly a discussion on ethics society should be engaging in but since the topic of obesity is mostly offside and society is increasingly not engaging in just the normal health implications of obesity there seems to be no way they will be able to engage in this much more controversial take.

I am someone who does believe to an extent 'you are your brothers keeper' if you live in an organized society in close contact to others. That we have an obligation beyond 'self interest' and to 'others'.

But there has to be a mutual compact there. If I am going to be FORCED to protect you, then you should be REQUIRED to take at least minimal steps to protect yourself.

Some on this forum 'gasp' at that equation and idea but it is generally the basic foundation of a social compact and I fear we are moving away from it and just shifting the burden to one side as if the obese are powerless to manage things on their side.


And I understand that this would be one of the most difficult discussions for society to engage in but that does not mean we should not be having it.

It is not hard to drop calories intake….
Just stick to water instead of juice, beer or soda for 3 months and see the results .

ya its totally easy and yet the country is all obese. story checks out.

might want to work on your math skills for how many calories 3 months of drinks is jfc this might be the dumbest post I have ever read.

Probably Because they have the same though process as you …..

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...da#weight-gain

“ Also, drinking your calories — rather than eating them — may increase your risk of weight gain. Experts believe this is likely because most people do not compensate for these liquid calories by eating fewer calories from other foods — unless they make a conscious effort”.

“ The bottom line

Fruit juice and sugary soda are similar in some aspects yet widely different in others.

Both are low in fiber and sources of sugar and liquid calories. When consumed in large amounts, both have been linked to an increased risk of obesity and illness, such as type 2 diabetes and heart disease.”

Pretty clear You have no idea wtf your talking about .
It worked for me and countless of friends and family members .

But hey do as u wish , I don’t care .
Ps: and now You know how freaking dumb You are , thinking my post was dumb .

Before victor add another dumb comments ….

Obv focusing only drinking water will not prevent obesity if people still gobble 500 calories dessert ….

But confining to only drinking water is probably the easiest first step someone can do with potential real results toward reducing obesity.

one cool trick to lose weight. consume less calories. wow, Ill bet fat people never thought of that one!

Well them and u didn’t know calories in juice is a real thing ….

And you don't sound like you do either, when you say silly **** like:

But I think that mostly stems from this:

And then assuming that everyone's the same as you. Because, guess what? There are lots of ways to gain calories aside from drinking juice, beer and soda. I know people who don't drink any of those, but are obese, so your plan would do **** all for them.

In other words, the advice is good for some people, but useless to others. Best not to make simple absolute statements like that.

Like I said ……
Sticking to only water it’s one of the easiest way to lose weight because it’s incredibly easy to intake massive calories by drinking any kind of Beverages outside of water .
For everyone 100% !

Obv. If someone stick to water but eat 500 dessert calories , there is no solution to counter obesity at all because he got more then 1 bad habits .

It’s basic facts …

If someone drink any kind of soda every day and u cut it by replacing it with water , i guarantee they will lose weight over couple months if they keep the same intake of food .

I mean how can u gain weight if u take less calories huh ?

But maybe the controversy lies because I used obesity instead of overweight ……

How many times must I open this thread to read this garbage. This is a vaccine shaming thread not a fat shaming one. Just start a thread for that

While you're correct, nutella, this is one derail I'm not letting go until I get one comprehensive reply in. I've grown tired of this and similar nonsense coming up in this thread without being challenged. But I'll report my post to suggest the derail is moved somewhere. Or deleted, I really don't care.

I assumed that your original post about this was a bit of hyperbole and that this would be a short conversation, but it appears that you're doubling down with this:

No. Completely and utterly incorrect.

It's common sense, but I also know this for a fact because I've lived with someone for 30+ years that deals with this. All her life, weight has been a struggle for her. She eats far better than I do, exercises far more, but losing weight has always been difficult for her. That said, in the last 6 months or so, she's down 40+ pounds. Do you know what she changed about her beverage intake? NOTHING. Because all she ever drinks, both previously and now, is water and tea (with no sugar). Her weight issues have nothing to do with beverages.

Oh, so not "everyone 100% !", then? But of course it's far more complex than beverages or desserts.

Your posts sound a lot like other ones I've seen in this thread that want to make obesity sound like a simple thing for people to deal with in every case. It isn't. Could I lose some weight by drinking less soft drinks and more water? In a heartbeat. Could lots of overweight people do the same? Absolutely. Would that work for everyone? Of course not. There are lots of great suggestions that will work for the majority of people. But thinking there's a one size fits all solution is foolishness. Of course the basic principle of consuming less calories than you burn is the solution, but how we get there isn't going to be the same in every case. Not everyone's metabolism is the same, and it can change not only with age, but medication, stress, hormone levels, and likely other factors. Some people are blessed with great metabolism, other people have to work harder at it, which is why "drink more water" is great general advice, but not a solution for all.

Right. Who the **** would dispute this? Believe it or not, not every overweight or obese person "drink[s] any kind of soda", or juice. As I said: "I know people who don't drink any of those, but are obese, so your plan would do **** all for them." Did you think I was lying, or do you need to read posts you reply to a little more carefully?

You mean if you burn more weight than you take in? You can't. Again, who is disputing this?

No. There is no controversy here, whether you use obesity or overweight. Changing beverage consumption won't cause 100% of people to lose weight, whether they're obese or overweight.

All right, that's my rant, and I'll try to make this my last post in this derail. If you come back to repeat your "For everyone 100% !" silliness again, I think it would be a lost cause anyway.

Fair enough .
It’s true I was lazy into my argument of 100% .

I’ll downgrade to 90% of the time because true , some people have a medical condition of being overweight but it sure as hell a tiny minority compare to the rate of overweight existing in society today compare to just 30-40 years ago .

The rate triple in less than 50 years …..

I dont drink fizzy drinks, am overweight, probably obese by some ridiculous medical standards.

Just give up beer, is **** advice.

Beer is great, and times are hard.

bruh, you just said obese people would lose enough weight in 3 months from eliminating drink calories. now which one of us has a grasp on how many calories are consumed from drinks?

again, if it was so easy to be fit, then we wouldnt have most of the Western world obese.

and now.... back to COVID19 passports please

This is the biggest challenge of this issue.

There are people who only live in the extremes. I doubt you and Trolly even live in the same extreme but both of you are in the extreme and your positions are any attempt at any discussion must not be accepted.

If someone says there is a very identifiable reason why Covid requires mass vaccinations and the flu does not, the instant reply by your extreme and Trolly's is not to discuss it but to try and kill any such discussion before they can be had.

These are 3 truisms or FACTS no one should dispute:

1 - Obesity is skyrocketing at an alarming rate and we are not have any success in arresting that trend
2 - medical science is getting better at managing obesity thru boat loads of medications allowing obese people to live longer while getting ever more obese, while building a laundry list of comorbidities
3 - this growing body of people within the population, as Covid proved, will be ever increasingly susceptible to viruses and diseases that mutate or emerge


So what does that mean if/when the next and next and next Covid like virus or disease presents that impacts this cohort massively disproportionately due to the vulnerabilities that comorbidities present?

It means increasingly society will be asked to shut every thing down to protect them and increasingly that others will be asked (such as kids under 5) to take vaccines or medications that do pose some risk to them as a group, when the disease does not.


And I AM NOT saying society is wrong to ask that of the community. I am saying it should be something we as a society should discuss and understand. That a result of this cohort not addressing the issues of obesity and comorbidities and arresting it and instead letting it get worse and worse ... will be a wide impact on the rest of society who will have demands put upon them to do X because that cohort will not do Y (lose weight and take better care of their health).

Does society have any room in the future for people who are natural health zealots, for lack of a better phrasing. People who live their lives trying to eat extremely clean, trying to avoid any and all pharma products and who exercise and do everything suggested and more to optimize their health?

Or does society tell them 'sorry the obese are not going to do any of the things we ask to protect themselves, thus here is the increasing list of medications and vaccines you will be required to take to protect them'?

The reactionary (and silly) response to this will be to point out **** happens and thus sometimes things like this are imposed on us and necessary. ('Ya, I agree'). While ignoring that, that is very different then when a cohort very deliberately makes choices that endangers them as a group which then requires everyone else to do things (takes away their choice) to protect them.