After last time, presumably it's just that quote from Edmund Burke.

May have missed that. I like this quote which is so relevant for most people when it comes to politics.

But in this case labour are going for a lot.

80 billion in tax rises, that's a bold strategy, let's see if it pays off

One thing that has already paid of from a left wing opposition is a considerable shift in the center on social polices. Boris & co are offering less but far more than they would be if labour wasn't now setting the pace on housing, health etc etc. This is one of the things I very much wanted to see. We've let the right wing set the agenda for far too long with the triumph of thatcherism, and I see it as a success if we make serious inroads into that over the next decade or so.

Plus you never know we might win this one or at least stop brexit. At least the fight is well worth fighting - that alone is a major triumph.

I know that Labour won't win this one.

People are too good at knowing things and that never seems to change despite impossible things happening so often

I agree it's unlikely.

It's amazing how often the party closest to the centre ground wins an election, in spite of the opposition. You'd have thunk Labour would have tried this strategy more than once in their recent history.

The labour could go full on tory. They would probably walk it again. Fantastic!

Lets aim for not being quite as bad as the other lot. What could possibly go wrong.

Corbyn's main strength is that he isn't Johnson. Johnson's main strength is that he isn't Corbyn.

Just think, if Labour weren't running a personality cult they could bin Corbyn, put Starmer or someone else credible in and run all over the opposition.

Chez - what will the reaction of the pro-LOTO "left" look like to a Conservative majority? From my perspective they've gotten almost everything they want - huge increases in public spending, a second E.U referendum, rid of Tom Watson etc.

Exactly. The idea that it's better to have Corbyn so it pulls the Tories to the centre, rather than just having a credible leader who would easily defeat Johnson is quite the take.

100's of billions on investment and 80 billion+ in spending each year. It's bonkers but unsurprising.

I see the IFS are saying their claims aren't credible.

That's what the Corbyn fanboys are reduced to though as they know he's never going to win an election. It's about seeking out some sort of validation for sticking with him.

You may chose to believe that but it's nonsense. 've been banging on about the need to move the centre leftwards since long before JC was even dreamed of as leader.

You talk as if the center is fixed but that's a massive mistake. Thatcher moved the center dramatically to the right, we have to keep fighting to move it leftwards again.

Not sure what you mean. If we get a 2nd EU referendum then that will be brilliant but that means no tory majority doesn't it?

I think they will have achieved more public spending which is good but it's only a start in moving the center.

The machinations over TW will probably not get even a footnote in the history books.

How much did the centre move after the 2017 election? It's ridiculous that we continue with an unelectable Labour party under Corbyn and his cronies and rather than accepting that the answer is to get rid of them we have to go through this charade that the answer is pretending losing is perfectly fine as it moves the centre (despite it apparently not moving the centre).

It seems to have moved a decent way to the left since 2017. That 40% for Labour really mattered. People who think their vote doesn 't matter are wrong. But it's all very confused on the left-right thing because of brexit which still dominates.

Yes we have to keep fighting. Losing isn't fine but having no chance is far worse.

See also Democrats, 2016

The centre hasn't moved.

Labour have no chance, that is the point. And that will continue to be the case.

I mean "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion"

That's fine but if it trumped the last manifesto why bother with a manifesto this time?

It's true that you can be effective from opposition (for example it's said that almost the entire first Green Party manifesto has now been implemented). Lembit Opik said once that he was always really pleased if the other parties stole policies from the Liberal Democrats because that's the most likely way to get them implemented. On the other hand, the first term of the Blair government implemented some progressive policies which are now part of generally agreed policy, such as the minimum wage and devolution - so you can do things from that position too.

Of course the center has moved. Tories are now promising to spend in ways that would have been considered mind boggling if labour had promised it until recently.

and that move has been forced by support for labour. Just as ukip forced them to move on brexit.

Not sure what you mean.


I agree with all that.

I mean Remain Labour MPs promising to respect the referendum then deciding they didn't want to anymore because they took Burke's view.

Incidentally Burke lost his seat too the election after he made that speech.

Chez - the "left" outrider types I read claim

i) Labour have been electorally successful under Racist Grandpa (lol)

&

ii) If Labour have been unsuccessful it's because they "weren't radical enough". And people like Tom Watson and Centrists and Blairites were sabotage Saint Jez and Labour needed a new PLP and so on.

Well you and the "left" seem happy with this manifesto. Tom Watson has gone. Meddling hook-nosed Zionist witches Berger and Ellman are gone. There's been a Tory Prime Minister for 9+ years who have implemented terrible policies which have been bad for the country right? And Johnson is a joke who is a terrible debater, terrible campaigner, lost every vote in parliament and so on right?

So what I meant was: it seems like things couldn't be set up much better for the "left" faction. Based on the preceding logic Labour should win a '97 style majority. But sure, Scotland has gone yellow yadda yadda so let's say 310 Labour seats + 45 SNP.

If Tories win a majority and Labour go down to 205 seats - what reasoning would you/the "left" give?

BTW I asked a similar question to the Tory/pro-Brexit crowd (didn't get much of an answer): From their perspective parliament has been blocking The Will and The People are fed up ... the most unpopular LOTO ever etc. It should be a 50 plus seat Tory majority. So if Tories don't get a majority they should also reassess. Things couldn't be much better.

I don't agree with 1 or 2 or the analysis. We just have to keep going. Real politics is along hard slog.

There is a bit of an analogy with the brexit crowd - you don't get what you want easily, nor do you get it just by winning a vote.