In no particular order:
Haven't yet won the arguments.
JC is very unpopular.
Brexit

Let me ask you (and others) a question? How many votes are labour losing because of JC's personal unpopularity and brexit?

Labour would do much better with a leader who wasn't a Brexiteer, wasn't unhinged, not dim, nor a conspiracy theorist and who didn't incite racial hatred. Lots of it is personal. But when the outriders are told to get rid of him and stick with left wing policies they say LOTO isn't the problem ... anyone "left" will get "smeared" etc. So they absolutely own the result, either way (This isn't referring to you).

Would an intelligent non-racist advocating similar policies do better? Absolutely. Well enough to get in government? Against this clown show, likely. Well enough to win a majority? Probably but ... but possibly. But as we discussed earlier in this thread, in a rare moment of agreement - most of the "left" are unimpressive, and the impressive MPs are "centrists". Why do you think that is?

Well I think (he says tentatively) that we agree that a left wing labour party can win. You may hate JC but the left wing labour party exists because of him.

On your last point. Because blair hollowed out the labour party leaving only the old guard and new members on the left. I'm not saying the new members are unimpressive, just that they haven't yet had the time to impress. Only time can solve this.

We agree a Labour party you'd describe as "left wing" could win. We disagree on how well it would govern and probably disagree on whether a "centrist" Labour party would be more likely to win.

Anyway look forward to debating the results of Real Socialism in England some time in 2090.

Perhaps they can get Ken Livingstone back to coach some of the up and coming socialists.

They did fine in 2017 on "respect the referendum" they'll do worse now with the same leader. So what's changed other than he's had to go along with what Brexit denialists want this time?

The thing is, if Labour do badly he'll lose power to the same people whose actual fault it is.

We've had a further 2 years or so to realise just how shambolic his leadership is. That's one thing that's changed.

His fanbois and fangurls had never even heard of him till 2015 and had no idea who he was, they just projected their fantasies on to him. The more people know about him the less they like him, which is why he's now the least popular party leader on record, worse than Michael Foot in 1983.

As someone who lives in a working class area that has traditionally had huge Labour support, he's lost massive numbers, I can only think of two people who will be voting Labour that I know of, or at least willing to admit to it.

Why?

Was listening to a discussion on the radio a few days ago that pointed out that polling shows more working class voters intend to vote Conservative than Labour. Wish I'd caught which poll it was to have a look but that's an indictment on Corbyn. It did point out that it had gone the way with middle class voters.

I'm sure we agree on the last point. Another blair would romp home - as leader of labour or tories.

Re' how well it would govern - we would probably agree a fair bit on the objective facts. We would disagree on whether that was good or bad.

Curious what you think we agree on and why, apart from AS, I dislike LOTO.

I would say because of fear of even more mass immigration, and his Brexit stance.

Yeah definitely. I see support on my Facebook for the Tories from people who three years ago would never have backed the Tories. I believe that is mainly because of the Tories being the only ones credible promising Brexit.

And I would agree that Labour is now looked at as a party for the middle class as well as Marxist types.

Labour finding another uncosted £58bn for WASPI women just because the question happened to pop up on QT is astonishing.

Well they're gonna lose, so they're in full promise anything mode. It kind of worked last time as they kept a lid on it getting out of control, but probably not going to wash this time.

where's my unicorn

I saw somewhere the other day that the labour manifesto spending will be inline with a middle sized EU country. So why is it unicorn and delusion? Have we all be so tricked by the conservatives cuts and their level spending?

surely doing 25% of whatever labour is promising to do is better than the absolute **** the tories done to us and will do to us? There seems to be always more outrage on labour manifesto costing than what tories will do and done.

Meh if Labour want to give me £15k cash, I'll vote for them.

Labour's manifesto?

I'd be happy with getting curly wurlys back to their 1980s size.

I think we will agree they will raise taxes as promised, spent more on the things they said they would, started with the privatisations, found everything harder than the manifesto suggest, run into some legal problems, finances will depends on a lot of luck with the tax take, get bogged down on many things including attempting to renegotiate brexit with mixed success, have a 2nd ref (straight majority) etc etc.

There will be plenty to criticise and like/dislike. On this we will likely disagree a lot. Size of the majority/nature of whoever is supporting them in power will matter hugely as well.

Lib Dems were out campaigning where I live today, I'm sure that'll help them not lose the 1% of the vote that'd make their deposit disappear