It's a loser's manifesto, pitched solely at the post-defeat scenario. 'See what we could have done if the victory hadn't been stolen from us.' Obviously it's unworkable and, indeed, bonkers.

Personally I don't think they should have made a glib promise to respect the referendum. But the electorate is able to understand how little it meant. Just like 'die in a ditch' and 'the withdrawal agreement will never be reopened'.

If Labour get smashed will your position will be that they had a good leader and brilliant policies and should keep on the same path and hope to win a general election at some point? Like, the result of the election is orthogonal to your analysis of what Labour should do?

Labour don't want to stop Brexit. Corbyn and Milne and McCluskey want Brexit. That's why their supposed referendum would be 'binding', meaning a 65% supermajority required to overturn the status quo, and in their view the status quo is Brexit, so Brexit is what would inevitably happen. Keir Starmer, for one, is extremely annoyed about this, but the Leninists are in charge and 'democratic centralism' rules: that is, the Party do what the leadership says and the people get what the leadership wants.

It's a very odd election because of brexit. I have had the same view on what a disaster this is for labour for years now.

but in general Yes, the left wing party has to keep being left wing. The leadership will change (JC will go unless labour do well), policies will adjust but we have to keep on fighting for what we believe in.

Depends if you define wanting to infinitely delay for the sake of opposing the government as wanting to stop it. If Labour wanted Brexit we'd be out already.

Disagree. Brexit can mean a multitude of different things. Ardent Brexiteers in the Conservative Party didn't accept May's Brexit.

If it keeps losing elections, you don't think that a change of strategy is in order?

I'm all for the left wing party staying left wing

It’s an election campaign. All sorts of wild promises will be made and won’t be kept.

That is true of course and it applies to all sides. But it would be false to say that what will be done isn't related to what is promised.

Some adjustment of course but not giving up in the essence of what you believe in. Arguments are there to be won, change is not only possible but inevitable. Plus I don't believe for a moment that the left can never win.

What will happen is that people, many of who aren't particularly left wing, will argue, wholly incorrectly, that a failure to win implies that winning is impossible. These people have to be beaten as well (and the fact we failed before doens't imply that that cannot be done either)

I think a majority of UK people aren't left wing by instinct. Socialism just doesn't suit the British mentality imo, with special exceptions (like the NHS)

I'm not arguing that failing to win makes winning impossible, I'm arguing that it makes it very unlikely. I'm not sure how many more decades you want to go through where you continue to test this theory before accepting that it is likely to be correct.

Also, you are going to need to find a much better (more polished, likeable, credible) front for your operation than Corbyn and McDonnell. You might like them, but it isn't about you, it is about winning the centre voters around. Pidcock and Long-Bailey don't look like the answer either.

I think most British people know the NHS is one of the worst healthcare systems in Europe. The reason why it's politically untouchable is that people are afraid that politicians would make it worse by copying the American model.

Hopefully they're able to understand how little the current Labour manifesto means then.


"Die in a ditch" seems to have been replaced by "let the people who stopped Brexit die in a ditch" so that's an upgrade from the point of view of leave voters.

Or you think Tom Watson has really stepped down for personal reasons?

Ok but I disagree that it's very unlikely. What is certain is that if we only have versions of what is basically thatcherism then we will definitely have a version of thatcherism. We will also have the accompanying anger and sense of hopelessness about politics that is very damaging.

I'm also of the view that radical change both is necessary and inevitable it's just a question of whether we will get ahead of some of it or not.

Quite possibly. JC is clearly very unpopular and that is a major problem. As is brexit is also a problem. Left wing policies on the other hand seem pretty popular with the biggest misgivings being about implementation

I find this debate kind of ill-conceived. If we stick to left wing policies (or not) we will win. Far more important is what we actually do once we win because at some point after that we will lose (and then win again one day and then lose again etc etc).

Both manifestos mean less than they say but more than nothing.

I don't give a tinkers cuss about tom watson.

Most people don't "know" this because it's simply not true. The NHS was around the average for Europe in the EHCI 2018 and the only thing keeping it from being near the top is wait times. Essentially the NHS is really bad for wait times, fairly average for overall health outcomes and great for reach/range of services, efficiency, and preventative medicine.

https://healthpowerhouse.com/media/E...018-report.pdf

I disagree. It is important what you do in the event that you win, but since you keep losing that bit is an irrelevance. You need to stop losing.

We disagree. But one thing is certain - if we give up then we will never win.

Right, that PDF claims it's ahead of many Eastern European countries (although btw that's in massive contradiction to my own personal experience) and behind most the western European countries, however in terms of what it calls "bang for buck" it's ranked 30th of 35.

BTW I would view any politician who wanted to reform it with suspicion too.

You disagree that you need to stop losing?

The other thing you need to think of is that you do not have the monopoly on socialist policies. As public opinion shifts, other parties can change.

No I disagree about continuing to lose.

I agree that no-one has a monopoly on left wing or socialist policies. Other parties are more than welcome to move that way and I expect they will as long - that was my point about moving the center.

Chezlaw why have Labour lost every referendum, local elections, Welsh & Scottish parliamentary election, European election & general election under LOTO?

(Labour may have a claim to the 2018 UK locals).