I don't see how it effects their gravy either way. It's more about power than gravy isn't it? Afaics the EU parliament is increasingly exerting it's relatively new power.

Dude, come on. Ones inside the tent pissing out get the future bigger gravytrain jobs. You know how this all works, surely.

It's all inside the tent though. And if it was about their gravy they will be pushing for the leaders who will promise them the best gravy rather than rubber stamping people imposed upon them.

The real dynamic isn't about gravy (plenty of that to go round I'd agree) but the battle for power.

Still arguing with Diebitter about the democratic processes in the EU. It doesn't matter how often you show he is is wrong. He will just change topic and come back again when one of the internal elections is a bit controversial but still fully democratic. In the mean time the UK is actually much less democratic but he thinks that will improve after Brexit.

That phrase "fully democratic". I don't think it means what you think it means.

the real argument is between those that are glad the council is in charge and those that, for some bizarre reason, think the parliament should be the main power and we should maybe even have direct elections for the commission.

diebitter doesn’t even know which side he’s on

hey yeah bizarre to think that a directly accountable parliament should be the key player in a democracy. Council of Europe is important too.

But what we prefer is besides the point to a large extent. The parliament has been empowered since 2005 and is growing up. Unless the very radical step of removing it's powers happens then it will become the key player.

Actually I do know that I can elect someone who then gets to elect someone else and that this is an accepted form of the democratic process. You think the only accepted form is the people directly voting for every position in the bureaucracy that any government is. That form doesn't exist anywhere but it is what you try to hold the EU to. Of course I am wasting my time explaining that to you again but I am bored waiting in a bar for my friend to arrive.

As for Brexit itself. The company I work for is sick of the uncertainty so in stead of hiring in the UK we are moving operations to Ireland. Means my trips to London will now be trips to Dublin. Not sure if that is a positive for me.

Electing people who rubberstamp (or not) people that they have no say in the choice of is 'fully democratic'?

Lol

This Week was a particularly good one this week.

Damn shame there s only two more to go.

diebitter: Given your views here, I assume you want our monarchy and house of lords to be abolished and to change our voting system to proportional representation (or something similar)?

lords definitely.

dont care about monarchy, theyre just some tourist attractant. I think they benefit on a CBA?

yes to PR

Bwahahahahaha! Amazing. This is what happens when zealots who can't describe what the EU has actually done that negatively effects them, decide that they've been negatively effected and then vote en masse. It's all about sovereignty until proroguing parliament is the aim of their champions and then suddenly they're fairly quiet on the issue. None of them can give a single point on which the EU has negatively effected their lives. Other than, ffs im old brown ppl ffs man get them to ****! I challenge any weird db dude to put forward any negative of the eu's impact on their lives that is not encompassed by international trade. And if it's not a by product of international trade then, with the deepest respect, **** them. You had your chance.

Affects
Affected
etc you get the idea


It's really simple, I'll try and explain again. I personally want to be able to remove bad decision makers by democratic means, and my preference for the basic default unit of democracy is the nation state.

Does that explanation help you understand any better?

I also believe no national parliament should be able to give away sovereign powers in perpetuity without referendum.

getting there ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48912063

And that sort of article details exactly why I could never vote for Labour

In what way?

so, negotiate a new deal, then campaign against it.

Good to see Labour bringing clarity, rationality and decisiveness to the UK.

There is no clarity in the UK. No-one can bring it. There's a fundamental split with very strong views on both sides. We can remain and take it from there. Or leave and take it from there as you prefer. But one way or another, any clarity is only coming later.

What's good to see (for me) is one of the final dominoes required for a 2nd referendum on the verge of toppling. Still have to worry about a boris/hunt deal that can can get through parliament - I suspect most of the ERG and labour leavers are getting prepared to back some deal even if it's may's deal redux.

I can't possibly vote for any party so intrinsically linked with the unions

I work opposite Labour HQ yesterday. In the morning our building had a fire alarm, so we got thrown outside and were treated to a collection of Momentum left-wing gammon with signs supporting Chris Williamson and Jackie Walker. The undoubted highlight was the "Women for Corbyn" banner being held by two men.

These were the people that not only helped to make Corbyn king but also don't regret their decision, or at least if they do are pretending that they don't.

Agreed. And if they like the EU, that's a +1 for Brexit as well.

That banner seems similar to the letter that was sent to the Guardian a few days ago from Jews who wanted to show their support for Corbyn. Turns out of course that some of them aren’t actually Jewish and seem to have anti-Semitic views.

I can understand that but I'm not sure this is really an example of it. This is far more about the real politics of Labour keeping as many of their leave supporters on board as the policy shifts to 2nd Ref.

People give Corbyn a hard time over brexit but it's quite a triumph to have got the unions onside. Wont be near enough for labour imo if this isn't done & dusted before a GE but still all to play for if we get the 2nd ref while boris/hunt cling to power.

Havign watched last nights debate I've begun to wonder if the conspiracy theory of dirty tricks to keep Gove out of the final two wasn't both true and organised by Gove.