Looks like a plan to me.

Like I said, 17.3 million Germans (the exact same kind of people as Leave voters, the exact same kind, in every detail) voted for Adolf Hitler in 1933. And they were wrong too.

That vote got overturned, if you recall, in 1945. I don't care if the same means are used to overturn the Leave vote.

That is ****ing unhinged.

Do you think those people voted for Hitler because mainsteam politics let them down?

I have very little faith the point I'm making will actually be capable of being processed and understood my someone making such a stupid comparison tho.

diebitter, you asked me a question which I answered in a bit of depth. You ignored my reply. So I will ask you, what if a Brexit deal does indeed happen and we stay in the single market? This would mean we abide by EU laws (without a say in them) and we continue to have freedom of movement.

If we leave the single market but stay in the customs union, we can't sign free trade deals with the rest of the world.

Would you agree that Brexit is then pointless? Why do you want Brexit and what type of Brexit do you want?

Lastly, what is your view on the democratic will of the people of Britain?

Principles man, principles.

I ignored it because it was full of your opinions presented as absolute certainties of what would happen if we leave, which I thought was nonsense as things that would certainly happen, so I didn't want to dignify the whole second part by actually replying at all. But okay, if we stick to what you repeated....

The minimum I want from a deal is to have control of our own trading arrangements, and not be beholden to the EU to regulate our own trade. I've said in the past I consider a seat at the EU table is effectively worthless now we've lost veto in so many areas, and I'd rather lose that seat at the table and regain power to make own trade deals. Personally, I don't care at all about freedom of movement one way or the other.

So I don't think Brexit is pointless at all, I just want it to not bind us on making trade deals. Just because the current people in charge are bad at it (and seemingly bad at everything, certainly when May was in charge), doesn't change how I feel about the principle at all.

If we don't get trade deals under our own control as part of this leaving the EU, I still want to leave as I'd see it as a first step to getting our own trade deals, and hope that the future will bring further separation from the EU, but that will depend on how successful leaving is perceived to be, so whilst it doesn't guarantee what I'd personally like, it's definitely a step in the right direction.

My view on the democratic will of the people? Well, I think if there's a referendum and there is a promise to deliver exit from the EU and that wins the ref, then we should exit the EU.

Godwin's Law still working in 2019 I see

The idea that membership of the EU is somehow ******ing our trading arrangments is perhaps the one most easily dismissed by the most casual glance at reality.

Which country free of deh howible trade restricting cluthes of deh EU (which includes non EU countries that have trade deals with the EU) have anything close to the beneficial trading arrangments that EU and partners has?

Must be so many, given der howible clutches of the deh EU.

Oh wait, its none.

Liar liar pants on fire.

No 1 reason for brexit vote is the stinking immigrants. Yes you do care. I'm sure if I could be arsed I'll find +1000 words from you the liar about the Australian model among other such nonsense.

At no 2 we have the whole sovereignty lies. I'm sure I can find +2000 words/lies about this.

I can't be arsed with your type at all. Not only dishonest with others here but now you're trying to lie to yourself.

This site was fantastic at one time imo, not any more solely due to letting lying ****s run amok without recourse.

FYP (in bold).

They're listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...by_tariff_rate

Sort by "Tariff rate, applied, weighted mean, all products (%)", ascending.

Huge week coming up once we get the toy party political broadcast out of the way

Brexit march set for Saturday 19th. Come out and give the 2nd referendum another, and maybe final, push. We've come so far and are so close, let's not fall at the final hurdle.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...us-protest-day

This is just the average of tariffs applied across goods.

You dont apply tariffs to those you are in a trading agreement with.

From your own wiki: " The respective import duty does not apply to countries with which free trade agreements have been concluded."


So the effective tariff rate is 0 with our largest trading partners by volume and with several other non EU countries such as Japan, Canada etc its going to be near 0 because many goods are exempt via trade deals with those countries.

Also even by your derp method its not 22 because several of the 22 have trading agreements with the EU, such as Canada and Switzerland. Also the data is out of date, as of its trade war with China, USA has the highest applied tariff rates in the world.

Honk Kong has a zero rate because it unilaterally does not apply tariffs. If you think this is a good idea for the UK then yea, lets smash UK industry/farming into dust.

Honk Kong et al can do this because they are basically 100% service economies.

The point is to have a mutual agreed non application, e.g. non unilateral, thus allowing you to trade with X country on equal terms. No country outside the EU has anything close to this type of arrangement across total trading volumes.

Topical:

O.A.F.K.1.1,

You can see the underlying source here: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator....mrch.wm.ar.zs

I think you'll find that Word Bank data includes the fact that there's no tariff between Germany and France in the same way that there's no tariff between New York and Texas.

Your suggestion that removing tariffs would harm UK industry is nonsense. That might be what you learned at the Donald Trump School of Economics, but it is not true. It would be a massive boom for British businesses and workers.

You've somehow got yourself into the twisted and self-contradictory position of saying, "UK benefits from the free and open trade with the EU" but also saying "free and open trade harms business."

You can argue one or the other, but it is internally contradictory. You should support the post-Brexit opportunities to open up the British economy for the benefit of British purchasers - whether they are businesses or consumers. It's your anti-trade rhetoric which drives the idiocy of frauds like Trump, or the evil harm of the Corn Laws and the famines that it produced.

I already looked at the source and there is no breakdown of there methodology.

Regardless it does no change the fact that the UK does not apply 1.7% tariffs to large volumes of its trade, that to the EU and several non EU countries. Something the wiki explicitly states.

We already did the unilateral tariffs thing itt when we looked at Patrick Minford, the most senior (does not take much) economist in favour of Brexit.

He is on record as testifying that Brexit or zero tariffs would deystroy UK car manufacturing in this Country.

A unilateral tariff scheme hurts manufacturing, it might give it cheaper input costs but these are offset if the market you are exporting to put tariffs on your goods, until recently cars imported from Japan had 20% tariffs for example, which is why they were so keen on making them here for export to the EU. They wont be so keen when we go WTO and those tariffs jump upto around 10%.

It helps services as they dont export in the same way. So a unilateral scheme would leave the north a wasteland, and unbalance the economy even further.

The point you are leavertarding is that off course we want agreed access to other markets at 0%. We dont want give that access and not receive it in return, that is simply moronic.

The fact still remains, that being a member of the EU gives us the largest access to 0% tariffed markets than any non EU country.

If you cant see the difference between reciprocal 0% tariffs and one way 0% then you are simply blinded by faith in an economic ideology.

O.A.F.K.1.1,

Yes, I'm sure that everything you've written is taught at the Donald Trump School of Economics. You and him might well be the biggest trade experts in the world in your own minds.

But I think - unlike you and your fellow-traveller in Mr Trump - that the purpose of the market economy is not to protect the interests of the connected elite. I think that the purpose of a dynamic market economy is to produce the goods that the consumer wants as efficiently as possible.

You seem to think that the purpose of the economy is to create as much work as possible for people. I think that the purpose of the economy is to supply as many goods as desired for the consumer. Those are two very different outcomes. You seem to advocate for the interests of the moneyed elite, I'm on the side of the ordinary British consumer.

If other countries want to impose taxes on consumers importing goods, that's up to them. Similarly, other countries can dump a whole lot of rocks in their harbours, to make importing goods harder. Other countries can do a bunch of dumb things if they want. I would hope that the people of these Isles can do better than that - but sadly, it seems that the collective memory of our community is terribly limited, and hence, the same dumb ideas that imposed famine on Ireland 200 years ago have arisen again, propelled people like Mr Trump to the White House, and allowed otherwise well functioning humans to pretend to be serious people posting on the internet in favour of taxes on buying cars as a good thing for the economy.

Rumors flying that a deal is just about done.

Nope. I don't think it's a possibility. In the unlikely event parliament supports boris's reheated May agreement this isn't actually brexit as the UK continues subject to EU jurisdiction for an indefinite period - 'getting brexit done' is 'getting parliament to waive its representation at the EC while continuing to be taxed'. If Parliament does not support then boris requests an extension. This is basically what Farage said in an interview with business oriented press at the back end of September. Don't have to believe Farage but he has been on the money thus far.

It's a distinct possibility that we leave on the 31st. If boris gets a deal which looks pretty likely now then there's a decent chance it goes through parliament.

Obviously parliament turning it down outright is also a possibility and my big hope is that parliament adds a 2nd referendum to it - then it gets really interesting.

Current Betfair Exchange decimal odds:

Leave on/before Oct 31 - 4.1 (~24.4%)
Don't leave on/before Oct 31 - 1.31 (~76.3%)

That's a slight increase in the chance of leaving, up from ~20% last month if I remember correctly.

(insert disclaimer here about small market etc.)

I think that if Boris gets a deal, it would almost certainly go through parliament, because the sort of deal that gets approval from both Boris and the EU (if such a deal exists) is going to gain widespread support from the British public.

It isn't credible for anti-EU MPs to demand a tougher deal than what Boris can deliver (what? Boris isn't anti-EU enough for you? that's going to be a difficult sell to the public!) and if the EU says the deal is acceptable to them, then it is going to be very difficult for pro-EU MPs to say that the deal isn't pro-EU enough for them (what? the EU's approval isn't enough? oh, you want a no-deal Brexit then? that is also going to be a very difficult sell to the public)

I think it is more a question of whether a deal satisfactory to both Boris and the EU actually exists. There's a good chance that there might not be.

I agree that assuming a deal with the EU then there's a very good chance it goes through parliament if the DUP & ERG are on board. But there's still the possibility of a 2nd ref amendment. I largely agree about the credibility point although many pro-EU MPs did vote against May's deal with the EU. It depends how many are needed and how much the tories split.

Ironically it seems that the consequences of boris hard deadline which was intended to maximise pressure on the EU has rebounded on him as he desperately tries to avoid asking for an extension. Still some pressure on the EU as well so we will have to see if and what they come up with.

Plus there may still be some curve balls. For example, the house could vote for May's deal instead.

I guess I stand by my prediction that if Boris and the EU come to a deal, there will be a very very strong public pressure to vote for the damn thing and get this over and done with. I can imagine the LibDems voting against it (their voters will expect/demand that), but the prospect of Labour voting to continue more Brexit debates for another year or more is going to drive people bonkers.