This is such a weird argument. The fact it hurts the UK doesn't make the pain for the EU go away.

It can be good for boris/tories, hurt the EU a lot and hurt the UK more - that's a very real threat for the EU even if we ignore incompetence (which would be a sizable mistake)

That, and economic suicide.

But it still hurts the UK much, much more. So it's more of a tool in EU toolbox and using it as a negotiation tactic might not in interest of UK since it actually increases EU leverage.

I guess "we're really this stupid that we might do it" is a valid negotiation tactics though.

Sure but aside from being stupid/incompetent enough, it can actually be good for Boris & co even as it hurts the UK more than it hurts the EU.

Not as a negotiating tool. Explain how the UK is going to use an outcome that is much worse for them as a negotiating tool. Give in to my requests/demands because otherwise I will cripple my economy? Most of the EU countries will hardly be impacted by a no deal brexit. Only Holland would be likely to give in as they will hurt the most.

No deal is not a 'threat', it is maybe not even a 'tool'. The fact is you work to improve your best alternative because it positions you to improve your deal outcome.

Ruling out no deal means your alternative does not exist, which is a sure way to minimise the value you get from the 'deal' - which of course then is not a deal, it is just accepting terms because you have no alternative.

There's a lot to this and it's where May went badly wrong in negotiating with the EU. I applaud her for not using a no deal jingoistic option as the alternative but, as you say, in any negotiation you need an alternative and it seemed pretty obvious all those years ago that it was either a special deal with the EU or join EFTA. Both should have been pursued with alacrity and back then the EU would have much preferred the special deal. Maybe there were other alternative as well but not having anything was a bad mistake.

That's assuming remain wasn't being considered. For remainers May and the brexiters have opened a door we might yet force our way through.

It's people with this attitude that will be a direct cause of someone like Farage gaining significant political power.

People vying to revoke Article 50 will bring chaos to us all.

Unfortunately I can't be one of the silly people who wont accept that pushing for remain increases farage's chances. Guilty as charged.

At least it's while fighting the good fight so to speak. The far grimmer fact is that our failures over Social equality, Housing, making the case for the EU, the economy, Iraq war etc are far more to blame and, unlike remaining int he EU, we didn't want any of those things.

I would agree that there has to be a 2nd referendum (or possible a very clear GE mandate) if we are to remain.

You lot shat the bed. You own it.

It's our bed as well. Where we gonna sleep?

In their ****.

Lol the threats. Wrong attitude will cause something completely opposite to happen and IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT!!1

Part of hopefully important speech today

It's still not too late.

lol diebitter

"We should implement Farage's policies, to prevent Farage from gaining power!". Genius.

Lol this echo chamber really doesn't get that a lot of the reason of us being where we are right now is anti-democratic gaming of the system by remainers you cannot accept a democratic result. it's them + Theresa May's ineptitude that got us here, frankly.

No, it is Cameron and people like you that voted Brexit that got us here.

I accept democracy. You clearly don't.

It's so obviously true that parliament failing to deliver brexit is empowering Farage that it's hard to see what anyone is even arguing about.

Freedom from the yolk of the (or should I say Ze) EU is indeed important. As is being in the saddle instead of that other thing. And going bravely forward instead of backwards. And putting the Great back into Great Britain because the people of Great Britain deserve no less. MGBGA. *tucks into cheesy peas*

Cheesy peas????

Take a map if you need proof that UK had no alternative from day 1.

Raab gone, his eyes were too swivelly, even for the Tories.

Boris '**** Business' Johnson has just told a gathering of business leaders that his '**** business' remark was 'taken out of context' (they always say that, they literally have a playbook that tells them to say that) and that, if we leave without the Withdrawal Agreement, he will use the transition period to renegotiate the Irish border issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48680303

As the BBC predictably fails to point out, unless the Withdrawal Agreement is ratified there is no transition period.

Perhaps I'd better repeat that, because a number of Brexitards, from Davis to McVey, have tried the same con.

Unless the Withdrawal Agreement is ratified there is no transition period.


Johnson then left Liz Truss to answer questions. Liz Truss is a certifiable idiot whose Big Idea is privatising the motorways and getting Burger King to 'sponsor potholes'. (I am not joking. She literally said that, to a journalist in a restaurant, covertly recorded by another journalist at the next table.)

The business audience were not terribly taken with Truss.

I believe that is a Fast Show reference to general, regrettable, parochial English stupidity, of the kind that later produced Brexit.