Biden's middle ground Title IX rules on trans inclusion in sport
These studies just don't understand testosterone.
Just because testosterone levels are "equal" between a biological female and a biological male (that underwent HRT), does not mean the playing field is level at all.
Just because testosterone levels are "equal" between a biological female and a biological male (that underwent HRT), does not mean the playing field is level at all.
No one's answered because we all know the answer and we know that you know this. Can we simply skip this part and get down to the point? Yes, there's a possible contradiction here. We separate kids by gender because boys tend to be bigger and stronger than girls. And yes, if you have someone that is transitioning/has transitioned, it's possible that we open up situations where a trans girl enjoys some of those advantages. That's why we see rules for certain world championship level sports, professional sports, collegiate sports, etc. In principle, I take no issue with that. What I take issue with is states deciding to use a sweeping ban to remove any possibility of a school deciding that they're fine letting transgender girls play on their grade 9 team, or the same at an elementary school that does happen to offer team sports, or intramural sports.
Neither do I, other than the whole "competitive" thing I've talked about. Because I think you need to do some incredible mental gymnastics to come up with sports that aren't competitive.
While I wouldn't say that every transgender girl will have an incredible advantage, because people are different, yes, I expect that would be the case sometimes.
Imo it’s not even close and it will get worst and worst for the fairness of the sports as they get older .
We literally speaking about the equivalent of steroid use advantage aka-> taking testosterone to be stronger , which obviously a guy create naturally more then a girl .
Unless we speak about a male that is totally feminine to the core (which imo we wouldn’t see much in competition anyway ).
Ps: I was just speaking from my own experience but it seem that little link here is pretty clear about my experience being right .
https://www.medpagetoday.com/pediatr...diatrics/87447
“
Analysis of federal survey data indicated that testosterone levels in boys versus girls had almost fully diverged by age 12, with no overlap between interquartile ranges.“
“However, 11-year-old males in the 95th percentile saw median testosterone concentrations as high as 327 ng/dL, while 11-year-old females in the 95th percentile for testosterone concentrations saw levels around 38.5 ng/dL.
This divergence was maintained throughout adulthood. By age 20, females had a median testosterone concentration of 29.5 ng/dL, while males had median testosterone levels of around 516 ng/dL.”
“However, 11-year-old males in the 95th percentile saw median testosterone concentrations as high as 327 ng/dL, while 11-year-old females in the 95th percentile for testosterone concentrations saw levels around 38.5 ng/dL.
This divergence was maintained throughout adulthood. By age 20, females had a median testosterone concentration of 29.5 ng/dL, while males had median testosterone levels of around 516 ng/dL.”
Clearly male and female aren’t the same just because someone think he/she is ….
Notice, there is some overlap, in that the strongest females can sometimes beat the weakest males. However, even the strongest females cannot match average males.
In other words, males are stronger than females nearly all the time not just "sometimes", with very little overlap in the distribution.
And for the primary driver of this?
People focus on the least important things on this topic IMO. Yes, it's doing some heavy lifting. Maybe I should have said most of the time. Maybe it's almost all the time. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter that much. If it's happening in a sport and at a level/age that is lower stakes and/or inclusion is very important, then I'm not especially concerned whether it's a big advantage some, most, or almost all of the time - I'd default to inclusion. If it's happening in a sport and at a level/age that is high stakes and/or inclusion isn't as critical, then I'm not especially concerned whether it's a big advantage some, most, or almost all of the time - I'd default to protecting the level playing field.
What are those points where it swings to one side or the other? I don't know, which is fine, as I sure as hell shouldn't be the guy deciding it. And I think that applies to most (all?) of us in this thread. And state legislatures sure as hell shouldn't be deciding it.
What are those points where it swings to one side or the other? I don't know, which is fine, as I sure as hell shouldn't be the guy deciding it. And I think that applies to most (all?) of us in this thread. And state legislatures sure as hell shouldn't be deciding it.
People focus on the least important things on this topic IMO. Yes, it's doing some heavy lifting. Maybe I should have said most of the time. Maybe it's almost all the time. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter that much. If it's happening in a sport and at a level/age that is lower stakes and/or inclusion is very important, then I'm not especially concerned whether it's a big advantage some, most, or almost all of the time - I'd default to inclusion. If it's happening in a sport and at a level/age that is high stakes and/or inclusion isn't as critical, then I'm not especially concerned whether it's a big advantage some, most, or almost all of the time - I'd default to protecting the level playing field.
As a general rule, I would default to inclusion for training and practice and exclusion for competition. As an example, I did karate for a couple of years. Default is everyone trains and spars together. However, when it comes to competition you need to match people by ability, and sex is a significant determining factor here, as it is in any sport.
Therefore female safety has to be prioritised over inclusion.
People focus on the least important things on this topic IMO. Yes, it's doing some heavy lifting. Maybe I should have said most of the time. Maybe it's almost all the time. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter that much. If it's happening in a sport and at a level/age that is lower stakes and/or inclusion is very important, then I'm not especially concerned whether it's a big advantage some, most, or almost all of the time - I'd default to inclusion. If it's happening in a sport and at a level/age that is high stakes and/or inclusion isn't as critical, then I'm not especially concerned whether it's a big advantage some, most, or almost all of the time - I'd default to protecting the level playing field.
What are those points where it swings to one side or the other? I don't know, which is fine, as I sure as hell shouldn't be the guy deciding it. And I think that applies to most (all?) of us in this thread. And state legislatures sure as hell shouldn't be deciding it.
What are those points where it swings to one side or the other? I don't know, which is fine, as I sure as hell shouldn't be the guy deciding it. And I think that applies to most (all?) of us in this thread. And state legislatures sure as hell shouldn't be deciding it.
imo if its only about inclusion, i see no problem when its restricted for the school they study in for example (gym class, school yard, etc.) or elementary level .
But as soon u imply outside school leagues , inter high school district/cities competition, and of course inter state +, it just unacceptable.
u basically allowed someone on steroid competing vs girl because he feel like it ?
i just cant go there.
u might even discourage teenage girls from competing at high level because of this.
As a general rule, I would default to inclusion for training and practice and exclusion for competition. As an example, I did karate for a couple of years. Default is everyone trains and spars together. However, when it comes to competition you need to match people by ability, and sex is a significant determining factor here, as it is in any sport.
Therefore female safety has to be prioritised over inclusion.
Therefore female safety has to be prioritised over inclusion.
My real point is that these types of determinations are better left not to GOP state mandates that apply the same thing to every sport and situation, but much more individually based on the concerns of the individual sports. When, exactly, the stakes are high enough to exclude a trans woman from joining the school's baseball team to play against their local school can be different from when you exclude a trans woman from the karate state championship.
I watched an interview with Riley Gaines and she talks about how when Lia Thomas arrived on the scene after only a year earlier competing as a man and ranked 400th . They were all in shock how she was destroying records and competitors and how uncomfortable the woman felt when Lia was naked in the locker room . She also said many athletes were scared to speak up due to retribution . She also noted that they had actually tied and they only had one trophy and gave it to Lia for the photo opportunities.
She also mentioned they had a swimmer female that transitioned male and competed in the men's division and finished dead last in every meet
She also mentioned that she gets texts and calls from fellow competitors, coaches and directors to keep speaking out.
The sad reality is if you do speak out your subject to violence from the trans activists. We are seeing more and more of it now
She is a brave young lady.
She also mentioned they had a swimmer female that transitioned male and competed in the men's division and finished dead last in every meet
She also mentioned that she gets texts and calls from fellow competitors, coaches and directors to keep speaking out.
The sad reality is if you do speak out your subject to violence from the trans activists. We are seeing more and more of it now
She is a brave young lady.
Oh, hey Lozen! You seem to have missed a couple posts again...
This is a funny way of saying "sorry for completely misrepresenting your views".
How so? I hope you understand Biden's policy in no way, shape, or form does this.
What does this have to do with the thread's topic?
Why would he lose? Are you figuring that the supreme court will be really concerned that Biden doesn't want to allow states to require schools to check for penises in grade 3 to ensure they have full control over what kids can play with one another?
This is really weird. The first quote is the one Bobo noted you completely fabricated my position on. You responded to that with two other questions, neither of which are the original but the first of which is just not even remotely on the same planet. Just because I speak in defense of trans people doesn't mean you can paint on any extreme "pro-trans" message you want onto me. My goodness.
Yeah I have and I have friends that are pro life and pro choice . I have only asked a few of my female friend about the trans athlete issue and their clear opinion is screw that nonsense . 1 is a masters crossfitter/powerlifter and the other two are crossfitters and part of the LGQBT community.
Biden can execute order it but I bet it goes to the supreme court and he losses
Biden can execute order it but I bet it goes to the supreme court and he losses
Originally Posted by lozen
Uke wants you to be able to walk into a competition and say I am female and want to compete like this weightlifter did.
Also worth noting that Lia Thomas, whatever you think of that situation, is a situation talking about the absolute elites of swimming, and my general point here and with the Biden ruling is that not all sport is the same level as that and one can simultaneously think Lia Thomas shouldn't be allowed and thinking that the grade 9 regional swim meet should allow trans girls.
You keep bringing this up, and nobody was biting, so I finally looked up the example you were talking about. It appears there is a single incident that the right wing trans hate-o-sphere is broadcasting everywhere. Riley Gaines posted the video evidence of this supposed assault, and, uh, as CNN notes "it doesn't appear to show anyone striking her". Yes, she went to a college campus to spread her anti-trans-inclusion message and yes that meant she was at a protest against her which fair enough, I wouldn't want to be there, but I think you repeatedly going around suggesting trans activists are being violent isn't supported by even the single anecdote you're obsessing over.
Also worth noting that Lia Thomas, whatever you think of that situation, is a situation talking about the absolute elites of swimming, and my general point here and with the Biden ruling is that not all sport is the same level as that and one can simultaneously think Lia Thomas shouldn't be allowed and thinking that the grade 9 regional swim meet should allow trans girls.
Also worth noting that Lia Thomas, whatever you think of that situation, is a situation talking about the absolute elites of swimming, and my general point here and with the Biden ruling is that not all sport is the same level as that and one can simultaneously think Lia Thomas shouldn't be allowed and thinking that the grade 9 regional swim meet should allow trans girls.
Lets not forget the Nashville Shooter which may have been a hate crime and we will not know till the manifesto is released if it is ever released with the pressure from the trans community not to and there are other examples of it .
Do you think that?
For example, this response to when it was "important to focus on inclusion and getting more kids involved" and therefore non-competitive.
But that's the problem with the proposed policy - it throws out that it is ok to have restrictions in a competitive environment but doesn't make clear what that is. So, different people have different ideas about what that means. Some will consider anything less than a Division I college team non-competitive (and, as we have seen, not even then). Others will see the local league season in U-10 soccer as being competitive. Most - and I'll include you here, but correct me if I'm wrong - don't think about it and say, "oh, just let everybody play when it doesn't matter" and not really think about what that means and the consequences.
I'm all for inclusion in sports. But I'm also for a fair playing field. The proposed policy is fine except for being vague about when it is ok to have limits on participation. This means it will solve nothing and only lead to more fights.
Also worth noting that Lia Thomas, whatever you think of that situation, is a situation talking about the absolute elites of swimming, and my general point here and with the Biden ruling is that not all sport is the same level as that and one can simultaneously think Lia Thomas shouldn't be allowed and thinking that the grade 9 regional swim meet should allow trans girls.
More or less, with the caveat that I'm the least certain and the most agnostic around the "transition point" for any given sport. That is, I generally think trans people should be included in most lower level youth competitions, and should be excluded in the pinnacles of elite sports like olympics. For each sport - and it will be different and should be up to the individual sport governing bodies - the transition points by definition are going to be hard to draw objectively. My personal take is Lia Thomas' competitions are on the side of eliteness that she should be excluded, but I'd respect the view of someone who argued I was wrong and the line should be a little higher instead.
More or less. I don't think grade 10 is the boundary I'd personally choose, but yes if you accept the framework that accepting trans people in lower level youth sport but not in elite sport then there will be some transition points where someone progresses over the boundary and can no longer compete. I'd try to approach that conversation with a lot of empathy. And I'd tell the 2 through nth places the same types of things I tell anyone who got 2 through n, that they did a great job and should be very proud of their hard work.
Simply saying "all sports are competitive" is obtuse and hyper-literal. We can still draw distinctions between them. I mean, I personally am fine with removing the exceptions and letting trans kids play whatever, but you know Republicans will lose their **** over that. So we have a compromise that's admittedly not perfect.
More or less, with the caveat that I'm the least certain and the most agnostic around the "transition point" for any given sport. That is, I generally think trans people should be included in most lower level youth competitions, and should be excluded in the pinnacles of elite sports like olympics. For each sport - and it will be different and should be up to the individual sport governing bodies - the transition points by definition are going to be hard to draw objectively. My personal take is Lia Thomas' competitions are on the side of eliteness that she should be excluded, but I'd respect the view of someone who argued I was wrong and the line should be a little higher instead.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to take your position of inclusion in youth sports while realizing that allowing Lia Thomas to compete in that division was a circus show.
That's a terrible way to run a country. Look at how it worked on abortion.
I obviously believe that there is a enormous difference between youth level sports and NCAA and up to the Olympics. I also believe that statistically, there just aren't that many trans kids out there to cause a lot issues in these lower level sports. I mean, we are looking at a like a couple at most for an avg sized school and obviously not all of those will be prone to a problem. You just aren't going to have very many situations relatively speaking in sports as a whole. I hope that isn't construed as saying that trans lives aren't important. .
I don't like referring to any trans person as a "circus show", but ok.
Sure, it’s going to be a mess. There’s no clean solution when people fundamentally disagree over whether trans kids should be allowed to play school sports.
You're just making up that it could be a hate crime. There is no reason to think it is other than wanting to vilify trans people. Am I missing any available information that suggests otherwise?
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