Biology tells u there is a male and female.

You can't ignore that when it comes to sports .

I would say up till grade 7 junior high in our country but the trans community has no compromise

Who in this thread is doing that?

Fair enough. So we're probably only a few years apart on this, although I'm flexible in both directions if experts demonstrate older or younger is better.

There are undoubtedly some elements of the community, like there are in any community, who won't agree with compromise. That doesn't mean it makes sense for legislators to take a no-compromise stance on the other side of things. They're the ones elected to be leaders, rather than populist radicals.

I would also be ok up to grade 9 if that team or sport had a no cut policy were everyone plays like intramurals.

The scientists aren't on your side of this issue, buddy. They've been infected wth the woke mind virus. Sry.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...y-transphobia/

Ok. Normally when you are responding to someone and put things in quotes it is a suggestion that this is something you thought they said or a paraphrase of it at least. Since I never said anything remotely at all about "important" I have no idea why you are talking about that while responding to me. But regardless I'm glad to learn you were not attributing this something I said now.

Huh? Is this more word game nonsense? I of course never said anything - at all - about "importance" so either framing of this question is preposterous.

There's that "important" word again. Weird. No, this is not my position. I mentioned diversity in the context that the exchange isn't necessarily zero sum and that there can be other benefits like added diversity benefitting cis members, but this was hardly meant to be the predominant factor, quite obviously the primary benefactor of including trans people is the trans people who can now play sports.

This simplification actually ignores a bunch of interesting scientific examples, but even assuming it was completely true, why do you think people are ignoring that? You haven't identified a scientific fact that proponents of trans inclusion in youth sport aren't fully aware of and incorporating in their values analysis. Your side doesn't get some automatic pass by being LOL basic biology, you have to actually use that to form an argument.

Biological sex can change but certainly not when u are born right ?
Now yes gene mutation or hormone can change for many reasons but I don’t think it means your body will actually changes right ?
It will affect your brain but not your body right ?

How u distinguish a sickness made by genetics mutation or changes/imbalances in hormones (or both ) and say that this is a sickness in some instance and in others it isn’t ?

Anorexia, bulimia eating disorder seem to be in many cases from genetic and environment causes .
https://www.healthline.com/health/ea...c#risk-factors

Are we suppose to just accept their condition as « natural » ?
U have as well things like Muscle dysmorphia that for now aren’t genetic based but only psychological for now tho they don’t really know why some people developed it .
The final word isn’t made yet if genetic play a role or not .

All I’m saying is the concept of thinking something is true because some kind of genetic or hormonal problem arrive , doesn’t mean it’s ok and normal imo .

But again one thing is for sure , it dont change the fact that physically their body will not change by itself to change sex that their mind dictate ….

So what leads ?
The mind or the physical aspect of your body ?
Seem to me in the end it’s physiological aspect that win .
I’m all for inclusion of course, but at some point physiological reality must be respected too when activities are solely based on that aspect of physiology itself .

I’m curious if anyone itt has had recent real-life experience on this topic. Like if you have kids in middle or high school who are navigating the situation of participating in competitive sports - irrespective of if they are transgender (apologies if I did not word that correctly) or not.

You said it correctly. You could also have said it as the shorter trans.

My kid are too young right now, but I don't really think this makes a difference. Thankfully, we have access to tremendous amounts of information on the internet and can assess things we are not directly involved with - as happens in almost all of politics.

I wonder if this will become more of an answer for high level sports:

Non-binary athletes to compete in own Boston Marathon division for first time

A little bit of a tangent from the thread topic, but I think it's relevant.

I've seen a few versions of things like that, and I think they are lovely, and are also part of why this isn't and shouldn't be one-size-fits-all. Marathons being both individual and with such wide participation are absolutely perfect for their own divisions. I think a previous version of one of the majors even had separate prize money (albiet quite a bit less than for mens or women's individually).

Ironically, the more sporting competitions emphasise endurance, the more sex differences in performance disappear. For example:

Jasmin Paris becomes first woman to win 268-mile Montane Spine Race

So you could argue there is less need for categorising individuals by sex, although for events such as marathons and similar having a non-binary category seems like a good idea - after all they have categories for older runners or disabled people so why not.

Female volleyball player injured by transgender competitor

https://www.marca.com/en/ncaa/2023/0...70a8b45ed.html

Sad story, but wouldn't a male have been just as likely to get hurt from a spiked ball as a female? Does that happen regularly? Maybe they need an overall rules change (or helmets).

That is because these ultra long events aren't attracting elite competition. Throw a few million dollars in prize money a year at it and it the Kenyan guys will dominate that too.

They wouldn't. And women are better at metabolizing fat which starts to come into effect in ultras.

Bs….
U still see it in marathon/ iron man competition the extreme domination of men .

I think they are less likely to take the ball to the face in the first place.

They dominate marathons where cash prizes are the highest and they don't bother with ultras since there is no money in it. It is likely that they would dominate ultras too if that is where they focused but no guarantees.

Look at the records for ultras. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon. Every distance from 50 miles to 1000 miles is dominated by men. In fact at the longer distances the men are relatively more dominate. For the 6 hour race men run about 15% farther but for the 6 day race they run about 17% farther.

The longer the race, the closer top women are to top men. Ultra marathons have such a small universe of contestants that I don't think you can draw any conclusions, but marathons have large participation both at the elite and recreational that gives us some insight.

In the just completed London Marathon, the top woman runner would have finished about 20th (you can't just compare times as actual racing would have occurred if it was just one open event). That is astounding if you compare it to what would happen in a shorter race like the 100m. Elite women sprinters would not even get on the track against even mediocre men.

Yeah you can even see this at events like the Crossfit games were female runners beat the male runners in a off road loop were there is just running. Now add in a clean & jerk and the woman are not competing

I actually think people getting all of their information on an issue from the internet and pontificating about it is pretty bad. It’s why we are where we are in this country on so many issues. Having first hand experience with these issues is what helps us understand them and develop empathy when putting forward solutions.

I partly agree. Certainly having more people have first hand experience with trans people would help understand them and develop empathy towards them. Thanks for pointing that out. That said, people tend to vastly overgeneralize their own narrow and biased sets of anecdotes, and information from the internet can be extremely important. For instance, statistics about suicide rates among trans youth might inform you about this issue even if you haven't specifically interacted with suicidal trans people.

Not sure what suicide rates have to do with trans inclusion in sport. You do realize suicide rates are up overall among our youth especially girls. Suicide is a mental health issue that needs more resources directed at it