The difference becomes apparent to the casual observer at about 10-years-old, let's say 5th grade. There's still a good amount of overlap - I would guess the top and bottom 20%. By 12-years-old, 7th grade, the overlap is almost completely gone. Only the very top girls can compete with any boys. There's always the outlier - you'll occasionally see a girl in the Little League World Series, for instance - but these soon disappear as they get a little older. And of course we're only talking about the self-selected sub-set of those interested in participating in sports. It's not absolute, but this skews more towards those with at least some ability. This tends to eliminate the bottom and reduces the overlap.

Using age alone without considering the context of the game or what sport we’re talking about seems ridiculous.

Go on...

Not sure what needs elaborating.

Please list a few contexts or sports where age is not a good proxy for ability. Please understand that moving up is never a problem; moving down, not so much.

Not quite what I said, is it?

Also, what are we doing about kids who are held back a year or two for medical reasons? Sorry, no more school sports for you ever, bad for the sanctity of the game.

Why not just have the males play with the males?

Problem solved right?

But some kids might be older than their peers. Or freakishly tall or muscled. And that could upset the parity of sixth-grade softball, which apparently is of critical importance to our nation.

It seems like you're arguing for something quite different here than letting people play on teams of the opposite sex

Having an upper bound on age is not uncommon in high school/middle school sports. Try again.

That wasn't really my intent, it was to note that the existence of scouts for scholarships at some grade 11 event or whatever isn't necessarily reason to draw the line there because if those trans kids aren't eligible for college scholarships anyways they aren't displacing people.

I care quite a bit less about exactly where one draws the lines than the extreme. I generally think most school-based highschool sports should be inclusive. So if it is a state or national championship U18 type of thing, particularly in sports that are very dangerous, then I think there can be some carve outs against trans inclusion at the highschool level, but that most people who are playing on most teams should have that inclusion. But as I say, I'm almost by definition the most agnostic about the exact location, so if someone wants to say it is the sort of top 1% of competitive highschool sports and someone else thinks no more like top 10% then sure whatever.

If kids are mature enough to decide to add/subtract their weiners, would a good solution be to let each high school's students vote on this topic every year? Let the kids decide!

You're one for three. Keep going.

Seems fair. Somewhere between no exceptions whatsoever and claiming that every sport past the 5th grade is a high-stakes competitive event that will be ruined by the participation of a transgender athlete.

I would allow it if they have subtracted their weiner. That shows commitment.

Rather than subjecting hundreds of thousands of trans athletes to decision making processes that will make them, along with millions of other non athletes feel bad, why not subject only a few hundred to such processes because their results significantly impacted the lives of a few female athletes who embarked on their training years before they realized that there would be a tiny chance that in the future these issues would come up?

I'd accept that compromise as well

Why does this matter to you?

Because I have people in my life this directly effects as a good friend is a competitive female weightlifter and some female crossfitters

As well I am pro women's rights including pro choice

Why does it matter to you ?

Trolly just has a big heart filled with love for everyone.

I have female friends who do fitness competitions, and yet I don’t have this weird compulsion to mock and shame trans kids.

Lozen gets off on culture war stuff.

You get off on misrepresenting people and arguments. Who is anyone to judge?

You're not going to have hundreds of thousands of trans athletes subjected to decision making processes that affect them. If you did, you'd have much more than a few hundred that you'd have to subject these processes to.