Biden's new education department policy would overturn the apparently 19 states that have complete bans on trans inclusion in sport. https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/06/polit...ule/index.html


It's actually a somewhat interesting middle ground in my view. Yes, it fights against the GOP's massive anti-lgbt push (over 400 bills introduced and counting: https://politicalwire.com/2023/04/06...en-introduced/), particularly on the blanket bans on trans people in school sports. However, the bill crucially allows bans on trans people, they just can't be blanket bans. For example in competitive sports or college sports, schools could still adopt these bans. And this is rather a step back from what initial suggestion by Biden was initially suggesting, and really opens the door for these types of restrictions to be commonplace

Politically, I think it is somewhat smart. I think a centrist perspective that focuses - as I commonly have in the various trans threads - on thinking about most normal children playing sports with their friends in highschool as the priority and less so a sort of state level championship where the winners get scholarships or whatever is simply going to be thought of as more reasonable by more people than either extreme.

Did you save any crack for later in the day or smoke it all this morning?

Well you seem nice!

Things aren't always as they seem

This narrative that you have where highschool sports is some friendly and non-competitive thing seems way off base.

I say this as someone who has been heavily involved in youth sports, having officiated baseball and softball games (primarily baseball) from the T-ball level up to JUCO with plenty of highschool in that mix.

Whether it's 1A or 5A, it's still serious and people play to win.

Erm, I wasn't actually trying to make a narrative one way or another about how "competitive" highschool sports typically are. I'm sure you're right that there are often significant competitive elements in even like small regional sports leagues between schools that have refs, rules, and all the trappings etc. In personal view is that most highschool sports should allow trans inclusion, but I could see arguments for sort of the most significant competitions like say a state championship or things where the winner typically gets scholarships to college or that type of thing. It is unclear to me the degree to which the Biden's administration is going to define "competitive".

When you talk about people playing with their friends, the implication is certainly that some people are doing it just for the social aspect. But people have to try out for these teams, and the coaches are paid by the school district.

This isn't to say that I haven't seen plenty of highschool baseball teams with kids who had no business being anywhere near a baseball field-- but overall youth sports would seem to be very serious business.

I'm not aware of any scholarships that work that way fwiw. Athletic scholarships are based on talent or perceived talent, and you could pitch for a 1A school filled with horrible players and your team goes nowhere, but if you have a 95 mph fastball you're going to be looked at by colleges.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. Let me restate. I think a lot of the value in youth sport isn’t on determining the best kid, it’s on things like the value of teamwork and hard work and camaraderie and a lifelong love of sport and activity. Or some better worded version of that. This is the thing I’d like broadly accessible to trans people. That isn’t to suggest it isn’t taken seriously, indeed I think taking it seriously is part of instilling those values. However, near the “top” of youth sport however one wants to define that, the goal of rank ordering people to be the state champion or whatever starts mattering more and I can see how people would want to restrict people near the top.

For scholarships, I was more meaning the type of events scouts would attend, or for individual sports obviously performing well is important.

I am interested in finding out more about these "non-competitive" sports. I'm having a hard time coming up with a situation where someone isn't trying to win.

Im not sure how the Biden administration is defining it, but if it is as broad as you suggest here (or left undefined so states can define it) then the door is open to ban almost all trans inclusion in sport.

This isn't a complicated issue. There shouldn't be laws to restrict transgender people from competing in sports.

There should be laws to bar biological men from competing against biological women, regardless of their gender identity.

If we're talking non-competitive youth sports, common sense should prevail. It's not uncommon in youth sports for girls to play on the boys' teams, or for leagues to be co-ed. There's not going to be a formal rule that will cover every possible situation.

Exactly but thats not what Uke wants. Uke wants you to be able to walk into a competition and say I am female and want to compete like this weightlifter did. What is funny is he destroyed a trans weightlifters records

https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-p...breaks-record/

Sadly Uke will not answer the question why have no women that have transitioned to men dominated any men's sports?

What's worse is to have a different opinion will have the trans community get violent against you

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba...ts/ar-AA19Btt5

Here is a thought if your a man and decide you want to be a woman all the power to you but you do not get to trounce on women's rights in sports

The idea is that if you don't allow this then those people won't be able to participate in sports, as if one's natal sex division becomes closed off.

No one's denying them the right to compete in the men's division.
England has created a open division in swimming maybe that's the answer
Open Division and Women's division

You can't call it the "women's" division though-- women don't really exist. You have to call it the female's division.

What percentage of people do you think agree with you that woman don't exist?

Not sure why that is relevant. Most people are idiots.

But it's easy to show that women aren't real. Just try to define one.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but it seems to me the most important implication of this is being missed. There's a lot of carrying on about competitive sports, but that's not really the target of Biden's policy; in fact, it appears to be ensuring that schools could still ban transgender participation in competitive sports. What's left is what's important, which is disallowing ridiculous **** like blanket bans that start in kindergarten.

Is this really a road we're going to start going down again in this forum? I seem to recall a poster who spent a lot of time summarizing other people's positions, which often led to mischaracterization of said positions. I'll let uke speak for himself, but this definitely doesn't sound accurate to me.

Males assaulting females is now somehow viewed as progress.

Nobody is saying it's okay to ban trans people under any circumstances. What reasonable people are saying is that in elite level competitions everyone should compete in the category of their biological sex, regardless of gender identity.

Blanket rules covering kindergarten and rec leagues and such are obviously stupid and unnecessary.

Elite level sports have their own governing bodies who seem far better equipped than culture war crusaders to make these decisions.

No they don't as we can see by Lia Thomas and it seems to be if you do not agree with this violence awaits as Riley Gaines was attacked over her views

I can confirm that lozen’s quote less claims about my position aren’t even caricatures of them, they are just pure fabrications

But you're the exact type of culture war crusader I was talking about. Of course you'd rather have Ron Desantis set the rules for women's NCAA swimming rather than people who know anything about swimming or collegiate athletics. Nut you're also not a rational, thinking type and this is a war to you.