If your quibble is with the word advanced then we can meet in the middle of early to mid dementia. Watch any recent speech the guy is slurring like its his 8th beer.

People on Reddit are calling Obama a right winger this second, so apparently.

I'm telling you, you aren't far off in an earlier post that, Thomas Jefferson is next. In a few years Abraham Lincoln himself will be villainized

yeah, i'm not going to feint over people not wanting to deify a bunch of slave owners, just because they were around during the country's founding..


but this can devolve into a great men vs regular men in historic vacuums of power type stuff, which is a whole different thing.

You could take the flag as a symbol of progress. How hard would that be? Why does everything have to be so negative and charged. It's kind of sad tbh

progress for whom? the slaves were still slaves for another 70 odd years.

why aren't we using the 36 star flag(i think that was the post civil war flag)..

yes, my quibble is with advanced.......... i don't think he has dementia necessarily but i wouldn't challenge someone on that.

i think his mental issues are non-age related... more extreme narcisism. which is fine for walking streets, but not president.

as per origins vs. oranges. the biggest joke is that trump would say i didn't say "oranges", then someone one plays the tape and he goes into his "fake news" mode

i think it's far too "cute" to use old flags. just use the current flag. that way no one gets tripped up by accident.

didn't lincoln make derogatory comments about blacks?.. i'm sure he wouldn't have wanted one of his kids to marry a black..

times change so much. lincoln was a "progressive in his day"... people like don lemon seem to judge historical actions by 2019 hyper-progressive standards.

why haven't jefferson and washington been challenged on slavery? it's gotta be coming soon

Progress from the point of slavery... Kind of like blacks "owning" the N word, or how the gay community did the same with Queer and ***.

But you make a fine suggestion, certainly a compromise could have been reached.

My understanding was that this decision shuttered a proposed plant in AZ and it seems like that isn't a lock yet. If its just the Governor throwing a hissy then I kind of agree that hes being a ***** about it.

They shouldn't be challenged because it was 300 years ago and they can't defend themselves. Framing the founding fathers as unabashed hero's is a bit of brainwashing for USA#1, but going full scorched earth on our foundation probably isn't the way to go either.

In my opinion, everythign is moving too fast to be measured. People are just kind of flailing around in a desperate attempt to feel important. Social media has empowered the individual at unprecedented levels, and as I mentioned in my previous post, worrying about the individual is an exercise in futility.

I'm pretty sure Trump has been far more personally interfering than other Presidents. He's been tweeting out threats to companies for this or that since he's been President.

that's a good point........ i'll have to think it through

of course, that's the weird thing.. it seems like hardcore trump supporters in places like kentucky, west virginia, alabama etc. are all over the place in what they want. they don't really don't seem to be to articulate what they want. i think they want subtle, systemic racism/xenphobia (supporters would say blowback at PC)... because the rest of what they want doesn't make sense. smaller government but alot don't pay much tax. lack of government interference but we need tariffs.

yes, great point

social media has taken a moderate divide (maybe a healthy one even) and made it this monstrous divide (both sides at fault to me) that will never be filled back again. basically, the genie is out of the bottle

do we know if the obama 13 state flag at second inauguration is true?

i find that pretty much anything inflammatory that donald jr posts is entirely untrue or wildly distorted or not highly relevent (kamala harris family having had slaves)

when i said trump believes in less govt interference, my own internal thought when posting was that he wants less interference in his own activities (and i mean pre-presidency and campaign)

They're "Moderates".

Article on the Betsy Ross flag. The reason stated in the article for Kapernick axing the flag is that its relationship to slavery. Which to me seems kinda Meh as far as it goes. I don't really see the connection.

The article does mention that it's been coopted by white nationalist and Patriot militias so Nike probably was spooked enough to axe it because of that. The white nationalist apparel market probably isn't big enough to compensate for the negative press.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...x-klan-854612/

to me, that's one of the complications...

i'm totally in favour of maintaining general lee statues/memorials in a vacuum... but then items like this get co-opted by racist white nationals. esp. when whipped up by PC

i think that's something trump has been awful about. he should disassociate himself from them. and it should be easy as i don't think he's really like them personally.. but he's wrapped up in the hero worship and fighting PC. outside of family, him being great is the most important thing. if he dumped them, he'd pick up moderates but they wouldn't hero-worship him.

I don't think the General Lee statues were coopted by racists. I think they were put up by racists, for racist reasons. Slightly different than the 76 flag or the Betsy Ross flag

i didn't articulate something very well earlier.

i don't think large numbers of people in the usa really vote for things that make them better.

blacks vote democratic to the point where D candidates don't need to earn their vote.

military historically vote R. but why exactly is that? R spend more on military and are unabashed military supporters... but does that help military families? again, R don't need to earn their vote.

and poor whites in all kinds of R/Trump states....... is the R platform really better for you when you're poor? i would think bigger govt is much more helpful to poor whites. but it might be more complicated.

basically, all these groups don't require the favoured party to earn their vote. they just give it automatically

but Lee wasn't a slavery person.. he was a military leader and fought for his home state. like millions of other people.

you might be correct though

Yeah, he only owned and managed them for 30 years and wrote “the relation of master and slave, controlled by humane laws and influenced by Christianity and an enlightened public sentiment [was] the best that can exist between the white and black races…”

While he wasn't the most virulently pro slavery figure he was certainly not strongly against it either. As a general for the confederacy he was on the side of those fighting to keep slaves and as such any statues commemorating him or the confederacy are pretty much inherently racist.

i may have been a bit rash in saying lee wasn't a slavery guy... i meant what you said, namely that he was pretty moinderate on it by southern standards.

lincoln is on record as saying blacks are inferior. used the N word... (admittedly, no idea what the status of the N-word was back then)

i realize times were different. and i aggressively defend lincoln when people say he's racist but i think lee should be given the same courtesy.

i read an article talking about whether dems/progressives have a patriotism problem. and frankly, i think they do.

BUT, i also think trump and his supporters preach a very shallow, cliched patriotism, if not an aggressive xenophobic patriotism.... wearing a lapel pin of the USA flag is not patriotism. sorry to ape obama

Whenever Lee captured free blacks during the war he put them into slavery. Also a big counterpoint to Lincoln is Lincoln ended fighting a war to free slaves, Lee didn't.