Arguments offered up by some Democrats against Catholic bishops who want to deny, Biden, Pelosi and other Catholic pro choicers communion are apt to backfire. For instance invoking the fact that Republicans favor the death penalty which has an obvious counter argument. Or pointing out that communion is given to sinners. Except that pro choicers don't think abortion is a sin. There are other problems with their arguments as well. Plus their is the fact that they simultaneously want credit for believing that embryos have no soul but no derision for believing that communion is important because Jesus is the son of God who came back from the dead.

https://delauro.house.gov/media-cent...ent-principles

that would be an ecumenical matter

Good point. The church getting involved in politics should revoke their tax exempt status.

Meanwhile there are 60 congresspeople who are rational enough to dispute the idea that killing an embryo is murder but not rational enough to not worry that God will be mad if they don't eat a cookie that is actually his son.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/who-c...eive-communion

It's not a cookie.

Cookies taste much better.

Of course the real truth is that most of those sixty don't care if they don't get communion. They have to proclaim otherwise for political reasons. But their letter screws up in a few places, most notably when they wrote:

"To pursue a blanket denial of the Holy Eucharist to certain elected officials would indeed grieve the Holy Spirit and deny the evolution of that individual, a Christian person who is never perfect, but living in the struggle to get there."

That implies that their abortion stance is indeed sinful (since it is only that stance that is the issue here.)

Unlikely to backfire against dems. The main problem is Biden/Pelosi's view isn't uncommon, even among communion eligible Catholics and they are being singled out for being prominent. It's much more likely to be a problem for the church as people care less and less about the churches position when deciding their own.

And of course pro-choicers can think abortion is a sin. They can think pre-marital sex itself is a sin, just one that cannot be outlawed without creating far bigger problems.

I did not think that their conclusions will backfire. I was only talking about the not well written letter which does not make them look smart. Better if they had said something like "we believe that our stance will not anger the God we believe in regardless of what bishops say."

Pro choice Catholics who claim to be religious cannot hope to avoid the accusation of inconsistency. Separation of church and state arguments are reasonable when it comes to divorce, gay marriage, and maybe even stem cell research. But if you really believe in a religion that says abortion is baby murder its not so easy to assert that you shouldn't foist your beliefs on other people.

I think their statement is much smarter than what you want them to say. No reason to speculate on what god really thinks when some church authorities are against you. Just point out the obvious politically based inconsistencies of the bishops and rely on the fact the vast majority of catholics don't really think abortion is murder.

I think that most of the people who think it is important to get communion think abortion is murder.

Sure. But even less think communion is important than think abortion is murder. It's just a basic fairness issue that pro-choice politicians shouldn't be denied communion for believing something at least 1/4 of communion receivers also believe.

Just revoke tax exemptions for organizations that protect child rapists and support Nazi regimes.

That will shut the bishops up.

Because they conflict spiritually as being science which obv is nonsense.
If we would give credit to priest talking about science , not much discovery or understanding of the world would of happens ….

Religion should stick to what it knows and leave politics and science out of their « expertise opinion ».

Rfd is right , pay tax if you want to have a political opinion….

+1

No major religion that I am aware of is not largely dependent on the belief that their god can and sometimes does things that break the accepted precepts of science. Such as putting a soul into an embryo or a messiah into a cookie. They would not exist if they stuck to your suggestion.

I think that 1/4 would be denied if they publicly proclaimed that abortion was not a sin. Especially if they were known to be actively working to make it as accessible as possible.

Exactly .

It’s like gto in poker .
As science (gto) gets more knowledge , false belief ( or certain plays in poker) gets discarded.

Political policies should use Empirical data instead of beliefs -> abortion, climate changes, etc .

Throughout history , false beliefs have been cause of massive tragedies.
It’s time to use more science, it proved it’s reliability for centuries now ….

Time to evolve .

Of course not. It's not even clear most Bishops/cardinals etc want to deny it to Biden. Expand that out to where it becomes even more disruptive and has the potential to seriously lower already sagging church attendance and more and more of the priesthood would find a way to be okay with communion for pro-choicers.

That would be true if the 1/4 admitted it was a sin but argued that it is not the government's job to stop sins. If they flat out said it wasn't a sin I think the bishops couldn't tolerate it.

What if they played it like the politicians and basically told the church what is and isn't a sin is your department, and I will confess the sins I actually commit to my priest but I would like my political beliefs to get the same treatment that is given to death penalty proponents and immigration hawks? Seems like you've taken the long way to show why what they said id better than what you think they should have.

I didn't originally know that the Vatican will veto the American bishops. But I still maintain that their letter was flawed for at least three reasons.

1.They seem to indirectly acknowledge that abortion is a sin with that sentence alluded to earlier.

2. They equate their "sin" of advocating for abortion rights with the Republican "sin" of wanting the death penalty to be legal. Almost everyone who thinks they are both sins puts them in different categories for obvious reasons. And I think you would agree that those who are anti abortion but pro death penalty would almost all readily agree to give up capital punishment in return for making abortion illegal. It was a bad analogy.

3. They imply that it is important to them to get communion. I think that most of them are lying for political reasons since to have that strong desire is a sign of stupidity that might spill over into other decisions. In any case discerning readers will assume that the writers are either dishonest or dumb. Even some Catholics.

Did you, by some remote chance, miss the Father Ted reference there?

I think you are making a bunch of leaps and dubious deductions to create flaws that aren't really there. The letter is a PR exercise after a group of rogue conservative bishops started a fight with prominent democratic catholics just because POTUS happens to be catholic. The letter is mostly meant for non hardline conservative catholics and people outside the faith who nonetheless respect their beliefs.

1. All they acknowledge is the church considers abortion a sin. That's not really in debate.

2. They rightly point out that political beliefs that don't align with the church's teaching are common and usually not relevant to communion. You can say "yeah, but abortion is different" but so what? Very few Catholics agree with the hardliners on denying communion for being pro choice so don't add unnecessary metaphysical crap about god not being mad about it and potentially losing people who are inclined to agree with you.

3. You are pretending that the only 2 positions on communion are the church's claim that it is an act of supernatural transubstantiation or that it's an obviously idiotic superstition. The vast majority of catholics reject both. It can simply be an important cultural tradition that brings the community together etc. I know atheists who were raised Jewish or Muslim who participate in passover/Eid events for the same reason. For most practicing catholics the logic is closer to those atheists than the magic powers of eating a cracker imbued with the power of christ (or whatever the church says communion is).

This!

Anyone who publicly advocates what the Church has unambiguously identified as a sin should be denied communion.

Repentence is a necessary precondition for receiving Communion.