Good to know but the arguments u using are not transpiring this …

I am debating the standard libertarian argument which as I said at the beginning is split because libertarian principles are agnostic about when life deserving NAP protection starts

You can be 100% libertarian and oppose all abortion except in case of rape OR allow it till the day of birth or anything in between, because libertarianism doesn't have any specific defensible claim about when a fetus becomes worthy of the same protections we give to full human beings

The point I was making that LOLwhat couldn’t answer itt is that the Repub and Dem platforms are super close in the broad sense of political stances. You are introducing a stance from Libertarianism, which sounds very different from either main party but also wholly irrelevant given the structure of US politics.

I only brought it up because L0LWAT asked about "progressive conservatism"

I wouldn't call right-wing minarchists conservatives because they really want to tear down just about everything. Maybe I shouldn't even say "right-wing." But the closest I could come up with were extreme capitalists who are otherwise ultra-progressive in the sense I understood him to say "progressive".

Whoever is in office will need to come around to libertarianism real fast once the dollar and bond market collapse if they want to avoid the collapse of civilization, as will enough people to legally make the necessary changes.

People have been saying this since the Nixon Shock. It's not gonna happen.

According to Politico, democrat operatives are terrified right now



https://www.politico.com/news/2024/0...biden-00160047

Yeah, half American are brainwashed about the economy .
Perception is more real then reality in politics I suppose …

https://www.morningstar.com/news/mar...whats-going-on

I guess dems just needs to hammer down what really going on by saying out loud the disconnect of what republicans are saying shrug .

We tried to discuss this several times in this thread and elsewhere.

After a +9% on prices (7% more than the purportedly guaranteed at all costs target from the fed), 0 inflation for 3 years would be what people want, and the fed promised to do anything in it's power to achieve (and has a legal mandate to accomplish).

Remember when inflation was under target for a while Powell said it was proper to catch up with the previous missed inflation.

Yes normal people are technically wrong in saying inflation is growing, what they mean is after that absurd, against target increase, they should at the minimum stop rising for years, yet they keep raising!, the PRICE LEVEL should stop raising completely if the fed did its legally mandated job.

Low income Americans are better off than 5 years ago but there are significant segments of society that saw pay rises lower than inflation. That's life becoming worse by the day for them, a wage recession.

But I agree this isn't necessarily all Biden fault, but try tell Americans not everything that happens is caused by the president...

Why aren't rates at 6, 7, 8 or any number necessary to guarantee inflation goes to 0 for years? As legally mandated to the fed?

This is really anecdotal, but it was a thing down here in Florida four years ago to fly trump flags on boats. You could see them everywhere. This year, not so much. I've seen them, but not near as many as before.

Maybe this isn't a referendum on trump after all, but on Biden. I dunno.

Trump isn't loved, Biden is kinda hated, that's the feeling around the median (and in polls, and in extensive analysis by many people including a lot of never trump, democrating leaning, centrists).

Biden could still win btw, I think polls about him v Trump underestimate his chances a tad, and the reason is third party choices are too high in polls, I think some people are claiming they don't know or would vote for Kennedy when they know they will close their mouth, curse the world and vote for Biden anyway.

To be clear for the nth time personally I think the world and the USA would be marginally better off if Biden wins, although I don't think it would be a disaster if Trump wins, unless he gets a trifecta with significant margins in which case it's bingo time

Some people always have hard time regardless the economic condition .
Point is half , half the country think we are in a recession 0o when it clearly isn’t so .
And many other metrics like that …
The reality isn’t just sinking in .

No we are talking 30-40% of households having lower real disposable income according to JP Morgan analysis (mostly people around middle incomes, many of them renters especially in expensive areas).

Then there is the obscenity of mortgages.

Basically if you own a house with a mortgage on you can't sell to buy elsewhere unless you want to suffer a lot right now.

You are paying 3-4% and would need to finance at 7 to buy a new one.

That's millions of households who would have liked to downsize, upside, or move, who either can't , or suffer a monstrous financial hit if they do (ot the order of 1k/month+ less in disposable income, which is a lot for normal people)

And what having the luxury of living in a house with 2% of mortgage rates having to do being in recession ?

a recession is when we suffer negative 2 quarters of GDP growth right ?
Gdp is related on economic activity right ?

Now u want to talk about the living condition of people ?
ok but that has nothing to do with being in a recession or not.

real disposable income in the US today are near all time high, on ascending trend after the little windown of inflation in 2022 and higher now then during
trump years so i dont know what exactly half americains are complaining.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0A048NBEA

US still have high economic growth.
high disposable REAL income.
low inflation compare to anybody around the world.
all time high stock markets
near all time low unemployment

so u can try to convince me the us economy is in a recession but i wont fall for disinformnation...

lets turn around the question.
which country would you rather be luciom instead of the US for the economic factor only ?
which country is better to be in ?

The US economy isn't in recession.

But real wages aren't all going up the same, and a substantial fraction of households saw their real wages go down. Especially because they don't all consume the same things, so CPI works to describe the entire society, but some people can face higher than CPI inflation in their consumption basket.

A clear example is renters. Rent went up more than inflation is many areas.

thank you.

as for real wages

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

and posting again real disposable income...

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0A048NBEA
ascending trend since 2023 near all time high.

So again not sure what there is to complain.
yes maybe 20-25% suffer, they always suffer anyway in any economic conditions...
does that justify biden poor presidency for the economy ? NO!!
is 50% of americans are brain dead about the economy ? yes !

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bus...h-2024-5%3famp

You can't use the average and claim everyone is better off

when is lower income ever did great ?

Often? Like under trump

So u want Biden to do as much debt as trump to boost the economy ?
Trump sucked for the economy , u being a libertarian is astounding to believe trump was great .
Hell even guys like Peter shift said trump was terrible ….


And again as a libertarian, since when low income matters ?
all they have to do is work harder and stop spending right ?

But anyway :

https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker

All wage growth level have been higher then inflation as whole and much higher under Biden while in trump was stable at a lower level .

anyway again , the US is doing much better than anywhere else …
As a libertarian , being against any handouts, free healthcare and education, unions, etc ..
With still high jobs opening , higher under Biden then any time prior ,

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSJOL

Shouldn’t be hard to find better jobs right for the low income people ?
It’s a strange leftish stance u use to criticize a “leftish” president about the economy using the people that libertarian never cared about to begin with and shouldn’t care about .
Let the economy do its thing right ?
The us is still in a strong expanding economy , opportunities are there correct ?
It’s on them if we follow libertarian philosophy.

For over a decade and more , always been around 50% of Americans didn’t had 1k in emergency funds but u claim lowest income were often doing great ?
Stop it.

Can you read? Under Trump low incomes grew more than inflation. That's doing better.

It's the relative terms that matter not the absolute term, for words like "better"

as if its because of trump the world was in a deflationary period ???lol...
ah yes i remember , u dont believe trump created the inflation that hit in 2021-22.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-inflation-us/

but the good thing is inflation keep going down and wage growth been positive for over a year now and continue to do so.

and this chart seem to contest a bit that trump was "so much better" in real terms.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ees-in-the-us/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...united-states/

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

Anyway the economy under biden is doing just fine .

Couple days ago I switched the cameras at a RFK Jr. appearance at a crypto/block chain convention in Austin TX.

https://youtu.be/RExh4wksdf8