And it’s a mistake to look at voter ID in isolation. It’s part of a series of laws that have the same design criteria. After an election, let’s look at the data and see what changes we can make to disproportionately lower black votes. Will these laws make elections more secure? Of course not, but we looked at the data and black people are disproportionately voting on Sunday, so let’s outlaw Sunday voting on a state level even though municipalities want it and it’s the best/most efficient use of their resources. Community organizers have started busing services that pick up groups of 10+ voters and take them to and from polling places. Older voters who feel less comfortable driving and poorer people with limited transportation options primarily use these services. But looking at district level data, black people are using it a higher rates so let’s outlaw it. Never mind that it sort of defies common sense and basic jurisprudence that somehow busing people to vote can be illegal when busing for any other reason and voting itself are both legal.

Instead of just complaining about voter IDs being racist, why cant we address the root of the problem get people IDs. Then everyone has IDs and there is more election integrity.... get two birds stoned at once.

Federal holiday for elections, at least a half day PTO for workers to go vote and taxpayer funded voter IDs. This seems like the easiest compromise ever.

[QUOTE=Cuepee;57511597]When you quote the person you see this I am only asking about voter ID I do realize that we see folks standing in line for 6 hours and they tend to be poor and black. I have already said no one should be required to stand in line to vote.

I am not sure how anyone in society exists with no ID

It seems logical, but is that true? Do we have a problem with election integrity, and would voter ID solve this?

And yet they do. Which is why your opinion on this matter shouldn't carry much weight.

Perhaps you have never tried to sign up Americans for online gambling sites, but I know I was somewhat surprised at how many (about 1 in 3 to 1 in 4) had literally zero way to prove they actually exist as a human. No forms of ID and their utility bills were often in the name of their friend's pet at an old address or something like that. I assume that each state has some form of ID even for those who do not travel or drive, but it was always interesting trying to explain to some of them that being able to document that they exist as a human is helpful and needed at times. The issue was far less prevalent for non Americans.

Because the root of the problem is that voter ID laws are racist and your deflection doesn't address that.

I am kind of curious how you would know this or get your info from.
As an old Bonus Hunter I do remember some of the hoops they made you go through to cash out. a copy of a govt id and a utility bill, notarized letter,

Id be curious how many voters that want to vote can not because they have NO ID .

Republicans oppose all of this. There is no possible compromise because Republicans don’t actually care about election integrity, it’s just a ruse and a legal veneer to pass voting restrictions. They fundamentally oppose further federal involvement in elections, so they won’t allow/fund an easy to get voting centered national ID and a national holiday is also out because they fear it will increase turnout from “undesirables”. States fully controlled by republicans with large minority populations will continue to push these bad faith restrictions and democrats can’t stop them at the state level.

I signed up well over 1,000 Americans to rooms after Black Friday for years. How much each site cared varied and also changed over time (generally requiring more documentation). For some rooms, like Intertops (who just recently changed their name) it became a running joke about how many had no form of ID that worked, and some of the stuff people sent in. Shockingly, they did not accept library cards or fast food restaurant frequent purchase cards as much as some of the players would have liked.


This I would have no idea. Poker players were more of the libertarian perspective with regard to government IDs, where I would guess that ignoring that group it is more likely to happen to lower income people so makes sense that that Republicans would be happy to do what they can to prevent poor people from voting when possible.

Why do you think black people are incapable off getting IDs? I have never understood this line of thinking. Is there something wrong with them?


If there are conditions that prevent poorer people from easily obtaining an ID, which I agree that there are, then that needs to be addressed. But to call a law that applies to everyone equally as racist is just asinine to me.

I dont think so but we have a problem with the perception of election integrity. And I do think that voter ID, made easily available to everyone, would help this perception.


On one side, Stacey Adams and her supporters think that she was elected governor of Georgia despite losing by 70k votes

And on the other side, there is Trump and all his nonsense about 2020 election fraud.

Making a 'black people can get IDs' reply is absolutely asinine as that was never in question.

You said you wanted to address 'the root' of the problem and that root is voter suppression laws have a very well known and overt history here in the US.

Voter fraud, not so much.

Also, laws don't enforce or adjudicate themselves. They're not like the time out in an online poker game. You do know that, right ?

I'm curious how they managed to get a library card without an official ID.

You don't need a photo ID to get the library card itself, but you very likely needed a photo ID to get whatever form of ID you produced to be given that library card.

For every 112 year old woman who legitimately does not have a photo ID or any of the other documentation required to obtain one, there are a thousand other people without an ID who just lost theirs and don't want to go wait in line to get a new one.

Yes, we've already established that your life of privilege makes this incomprehensible to you. I have an extremely privileged life, and from that point of view, obtaining ID seems trivially easy. We need to step outside of our worlds to understand that not everyone lives the same way we do.

If you're genuinely curious, it's not difficult to find some sources. The numbers vary widely, but I've seen figures of anywhere from a few million to tens of millions of Americans without government ID.

This is what is often referred to as systemic racism. Laws and rules that apply to everyone, but disproportionately affect those of certain races/colours/cultures are a big problem.

And FWIW, there are actually some ways in which black Americans have been directly disadvantaged when it comes to obtaining ID:

https://www.npr.org/2012/02/01/14620...-government-id

But, is it really important if we call a law racist, classist, or simply unjust/corrupt because it's designed to disenfranchise groups of voters? Regardless of the motivation, it's a big problem.

Agreed. For those who actually buy into the idea that voter ID laws are 100% aimed at combatting voter fraud, how do you justify cutting back hours of voting, days of voting, ways to get to polling places, closing polling stations...and on and on it goes.

The math on this is really, really simple. The most disadvantaged people are always going to be the people most affected by laws that limit access to voting, whether it's ID or poll availability. And historically, we know that benefits Republicans far more than Democrats. And who is pushing for these laws, pretty much every time? This isn't rocket science.

So let me give you a very specific example of what Trump and Co have been busy doing.

In the 2020 election you probably recall that in the close States, that in the ones Trump was behind, his people inside and the protestors out side were demanding they "Count ever Vote!"

Conversely in any State were he was ahead and it was clear Biden was gaining and likely to over take his people and the protestors demanded they "Stop the count".


The problem Trump and Co had was they had vote Counters (State AG's and local officials) who would not subvert the law for him.

Trump is trying to remedy that for the next election as he has noted, targeting those who count the vote as most important to control.


So come 2024 Trump and co have already put in place a ton of people in these decision making positions who took the position in 2020 that there was massive fraud and Trump won.

If those people are able to "Stop the Count' in any key State Trump is slightly up but about to lose in, simply because Trump yells 'fraud... stop the count', there is no Constitutional remedy for that.

The local people in charge can simply say 'we got a credible allegation of fraud and stopped counting while we looked into it' and the best the Dem's could do is try to get an emergency SC decision to restart it.

We learned in Bush V Gore, the SC cannot reset the date or give more time, so even if they think it was wrong to stop counting and it needs to resume, the count by the Constitution must be certified by a certain date.

So just as with Bush V Gore they could rule, 'yes the count should be happening' but also say 'too bad though as there is no time and remedy, so you must certify anyway'.

That is it. Just like that Trump stole a bunch of swing States and there is no remedy in the Constitution to fix that if they delay the count long enough that it cannot be done before the required certification date.


What the Dems and society would be told would be 'sucks to be as it really looks like you would have won, but them is the breaks, as the States have control over that aspect, and the Certifications are now done'.


Obviously such a blatant steal would lead to mass unrest in the Dem base, particularly the younger progressive types and the POC voters. As a betting man, I would be counting on Trump wishing for that as he takes power, as Step 2, is then to weaponize "dissent" in ways America has not seen prior. He wants to slam the full weight of law enforcement and the Military into such protestors and I think he will gladly fire anyone who stands in his way. This time I am betting he does not allow any threat of Mass Resignations to deter him. He wants those mass resignations. He wants to fill those ranks with 'his' people so on the next order it is followed without question.

Hah! Nailed it.

First the story trots out an old woman with no birth certificate, and then says the line at the DMV is very long for the free government IDs.

And if you want data on how many voters this could potentially prevent from voting, the experts are the republicans who write these laws. They have access to all the voter roll/demographic info and make dam sure they aren’t wasting their time pushing for restrictions that won’t reduce black voting. Of course you need a subpoena and standing to get them to tell you since their rationale for pushing for these laws can make them illegal like in the North Carolina case.

So I found this video which explains it well




As well I picked a state that everyone says is racist on what you need to vote

https://sos.ga.gov/admin/files/GAID_Req_Brochure.pdf

It looks like you can get a free voter ID and request a mail in ballot without ID


Also when and how you can vote in 2022

https://states.aarp.org/georgia/election-voting-guide


Though I have no clue what is the 2021 voting law.

Also if the laws in Georgia guarantee a GOP will win How did the Dems win senate seats in Georgia and carry Georgia . I do realize Stacy Abrams lost because it was a rigged election and that is why she refused to concede

[QUOTE=lozen;57512306] None of the extra stuff matters. You can just insert =QP after the word QUOTE with the brackets and it will add that persons name to the quote.




that is not the issue and i think you know that.

What the GOP wants you to think is 'well of course a drivers license or such ID should be easy for everyone' as that is reasonable.

But it is the why. There was no fraud prior with the other alternative forms of id...so shy THIS fix?


The answer is they have a team of people comb thru all the Voting data and they look for anything and everything that tends to be something that those who vote Dem do not have or do and that then becomes the list of things they reverse engineer to say 'we need those things'.

The ONLY reason they are doing these things is they realize every time you force someone to go out and do one more thing, stand in one more line, fill out one more form, a certain percent don't bother or don't get it done in time or make mistakes and thus drop off the voter rolls.

That is the entirety of what they are doing.

So if they saw POC tended to vote later in the day due to not getting off work earlier they try to shut down the later voting. They say it is the same rules for all thus safe, but it is data driven.

When it comes to voting drop boxes they say 'one per district' and that is fair as it is the same for everyone. But districts where POC live are typically far more populace whereas GOp voters in the suburbs are far less. That means where one drop box is fine for the suburbs it might be ridiculous in an inner city causing long lines. THAT IS THE POINT.


That is what makes these moves anti democracy and often racist.

The reason they don't want people to get water in line to vote or to not be able to leave the line to go to the bathroom as elderly POC end to line up the longest to vote in many areas. They are determined. So they are targeting them for hardship hoping some just give up.

So you need to stop even saying 'but everyone should have ID right' as if that being true has anything to do with this issue. It does not. it is being used as a fake issue to manufacture a reason for another ends.

So, wait, there are different reasons why different people don't have IDs? Shocking!

You'd think so, given how much of a big deal is made of the number of people without ID.

Come up with a way to satisfy the needs of the tiny number of elderly who lost their birth certificates in the Battle of the Bulge, and then tell the remaining people that they can spare one afternoon every 7 years to go get their free government-issued ID, just like the rest of us.

Stop blaming racism.

The GOP certainly can be trusted to endorse a campaign to ensure that every indigent and elderly person has a photo ID.

This is such a bad faith question.

The question is not whether these people can jump the necessary hoops to get an ID. They can, in most instances. Some in inner cities grow up with no collected documentation and the process involves record searches, notary sworn statements wear gaps exists, and then filing and eventual granting of the ID, and that is a fine process for any one and most should do it and get their ID done.

But when there is no election fraud and there has always been alternate forms of 'ID' that are acceptable why suddenly say 'only these types will now do'? Why fix a system that was not broken?

The answer is that the GOP knows a certain percent will simply not go through the process and will thus drop off the voter rolls.

So they look up and down all the statistics they can gather and look for 5, 10 or 20 things where POC and other Dem voters seem to have a concentration of elements that they can find a way to say 'these changes are now required' to continually hope that more and more Dem voters just won't be bothered and give up,


it reminds me of what one State did in the last election in changing their local rules such that zip codes were required to vote and everyone would be turned away otherwise. Sounds reasonable that even a homeless person would have a zip code for a shelter or somewhere they could reference. But the rule was being targeted at the very large Indigenous Communities vote and to shut them out. Many reserves do not have zip codes and instead have other 'identifiers' that could be used.

The first thing the indigenous did was attempt to sue but they realized the election would come and go before they had their day in court and they would be denied at the ballot box with no Zip Code. So they switched to emergency applications for Zip codes creating arbitrary ways to designate the tribal lands in ways that made it work.

i don't even know how it worked out in the end but I remember the news stories in real time, years ago and the usual cry from the right 'why should people not have zip codes?', 'why can they not apply to get them'.

The Democratic wins in GA and AZ have made them ground 0 for new voting restriction laws aimed at making sure that doesn’t happen again. Lol at still being mad at Stacy Abrams for something 50+ white men that you can’t even name also did. I know your (awful) bro media sources single her out as a false equivalency to Trump, but it’s not relevant.