never understood why a bigger deal wasn't made about drone striking a us citizen without trial - yes he was probably a terrorist, but it sets a dangerous precedent when you start coming up with reasons to skirt around typical procedure

also don't get how a lot of the same people who don't make a big issue out of all the government surveillance leaked by snowden but draw the line at contact tracing

If you're brainwashed to think Obama is a dangerous leftist there's probably no concept of the nation trending too far right in your brainwashed mind.

That's why something like 30% of the country don't even think 1-6 was an event let alone a coupe.

rflush, i didn't say any of that, but sure go ahead with your absurd "zomg he criticized obama he must be a extremely far on the right"

your mentality is everything that's wrong with american politics and good reason why we should seriously reconsider the merits of universal suffrage

This isn't an issue of degrees. There's a categorical difference between illegally gaining governmental powers within our constitutional framework either through force or fraud and rendering the Constitution null and void as would happen if we lost a war and our enemy's government became the law of the land. Treason and coup refer to the latter, not the former. Loosely speaking I doubt anyone cares if you want to refer to what happened as a coup attempt or treason. But when someone asks if it's treason or a coup in a technical or legal sense of toppling the government along with the legal consequences, then the answer is no.

You kind of gave your argument away by conceding they didn't have a plan. According to our guiding legal philosophy you need intent to be guilty of a crime. It's too easy for them to make the case that they were just there to protest in the manner of occupying a government building and not to seize power by fiat.


I think I agree that no ostensible reason behind a coup attempt matters to the state that withstands such an attempt. Even if the election was rigged it remains reflexively true that it is always a crime to attempt to topple the government.

In summary, had they planned to topple the government then yes they would be guilty of treason and the reasons for the toppling effort don't matter. However, you can't prove they planned that in most cases so there is no crime. Maybe some individuals did plan to topple the government and waxed poetic about it on social media. I would say if they actually made plans for a new government then yeah they could be prosecuted for treason. However, if their plans were only to stop the certification I don't think that could be convincingly equated with treason but it should be something prosecutable.

It seems like he was more of a thought leader than an actual terrorist. Obama also drone killed the guy's son a few weeks later. The kid, 16 and born in Denver Colorado, had went to try to visit his father in Yemen. Then the guy's 8 year old daughter was killed in 2017 in a raid ordered by Trump.

So there is more than just procedural best practices being sacrificed under Obama's expansion of the drone program. It seems like they took out this guys whole bloodline because they were just that pissed. That's outrageous lawlessness.

i find it funny that Trump and Barr accused Edward Snowden of being a traitor ....

when i look at the 3, clear to me only one of them was fighting for true law and liberty for the people.

I myself consider Snowden a hero.

Regarding Trump and Barr accusing Snowden of being a traiter, I'd be surprised if any high-ranking official in the federal government in either party would have kind words about Snowden.

i think most were just mindless idiots caught up in the moment

but i don't think there's any doubt there were people there steering the thing with the intention to keep trump in office and a lot of logistic help etc etc that was hoping for that result as well

I know you didn't. I was commenting on how fanatical and polarized the country is at the moment.

The mentality that no one who disagrees with you should be allowed to vote actually is much of what is wrong with American politics.

So far this week I've been told by a poster they'd like to kill me and by another poster that I shouldn't enjoy the right to vote.

You guys are really making the case that America isn't a fascist country.

I agree that treason is off the table but what the 6-1 mob did was a coup.
I mean if they were legally trying to seize control of the government none of them would be getting their free vacations right now.

Coup = illegal seizure of power. Right ? Pretty easy to see that's what they were doing. I know some of them are saying they thought it was okay because the president told them to but....you know, that's not how it works.

I think it was a pretty big deal. I'm no expert on the drone program and out of the thousands of strikes under Bush, Obama and Trump I know the exact one you are referencing.

it was a coup attempt in reality and no amount of spin will change that.

it was a multi faceted coup attempt.

Biden won a fair election. there was an attempt to over ride that with force (break up the Constitutional process of affirming him) while then reinstating the prior guy, Trump via fraudulent slates of electors forced into the system and then throwing the mess to Congress for a vote where the R's would have a majority and thus could vote in Trump.


in every way you measure it that is a coup attempt with the goal of installing the guy who lost the election back to power. It is not just a mischief or protest attempt. They wanted to over throw Bidens rightful gov't.

Sadly right-wingers are not very intelligent and love strong leaders so they can just be followers. Trump is a cult of personality and the right-wingers will just accept whatever he says as gospel because they are too lazy to think about things themselves and come up with their own opinions. It's the same reason most Trumpers have posters of Putin and Kim in their bedrooms (which are usually located in their parents' basements).

no you weren't, you're just ducking for cover now

someone posts an objective fact about a former president that they felt was wrong and you immediately respond with vitriol and hyperbole accusing that person of being a fanatic on the other side of the political spectrum

that's pathetic

This is all problematic in the US because we have a long history of excusing or normalizing certain types of treason. If you don't charge Jefferson Davis after he lead a group that voted in an election, didn't like the results then tried to start a new government complete with it's own army that fought against the democratically elected government and it's army who exactly should be guilty of treason in a technical sense?

In a discourse where no one can admit to flaws in their arguments those are the best sort of indications you can get that your adversaries respect your arguments and are majorly butthurt by them. I once had an otherwise very sober centrist poster here post a whole aside about how nothing I ever do will have the slightest political impact on the world. I read that as "You might be kicking my ass all over the place here and be truly righteous but ultimately my side wins and your side loses so ha" and hold it as a source of pride.

Good point. I think the only officer held to account after the war was the guy in charge of the Andersonville POW camp. This country has a long history of treating reactionary traitors with kid gloves and that extends right into the current moment. There weren't even horse mounted police present on Jan. 6th even though it was very apparent that there was a massive action being planned. Regular citizens were yelling about the obvious lack of preparedness. It's weird because the capital police have no problem whacking a disabled veteran over the head if they are protesting something or macing some whacko libertarian. But if you are an actual traitor it's like "respect yo".

I think it traces back to the country's fascist roots. Racist exploitation and ethnic cleansing are essentially fascist enterprises. The elites here were supporting Mussolini and Hitler early on before the outbreak of war in earnest, just instinctively. Neo Nazis or KKK can commit crimes and they aren't thought of as terrorist networks. Neo Nazis and other White supremacists are tolerated in law enforcement and the military. What would you expect from a country built on ethnic cleansing and race based slavery? We might have some highly evolved civil rhetoric but at the core there is still a significant WASP component that needs to kill all the Indians and get cheap labor from colored people and that impulse finds kinship in modern forms of fascism. The Jan. 6th crowd are traitors on paper but they are loyalists to some of the core operational principles of America which a disabled veteran who wants healthcare betrays.

Like I said I understand what you mean with the term. But I would think a minimal requirement for a coup or an attempted one would be the removal from power of someone legally/constitutionally in power.

Only US citizens can be convicted of treason. So if one renounces one's citizenship....

Oh I get it.

I mean to say coup attempt. I would agree that it wasn't a completed coup.

Yeah. It's not really anything more or less than I expect but Jesus is bringing out the best in his followers this week.

LOL

What objective fact about which former president did I think was wrong ?

you're just trolling now and playing semantics, be better than this

i stated that i thought it was messed up how not much was made of obama knowingly drone striking a us citizen without trial - that's all i said - i also never said you disagreed with that

you came in hot with a hilariously incorrect take and now trying to save face when the smart thing would be to stop bringing it up and leave as a non issue everyone forgets about

Reflect on this please.