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Old 06-23-2020, 08:03 PM   #1426
moss84
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

what is the software upgrade that prohibits PT4 (v4.15.11 and newer) from being used while playing? what if you are running v4.15.10??
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Old 06-23-2020, 08:11 PM   #1427
TheMVP
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by plomaster View Post
No software should be allowed during the game. even a tracker!
the ecosystem would be better preserved.
@mike you should seriously consider this option.
This is wrong and first level thinking.

Trackers do not disadvantage recreational players, a -20bb player will remain a -20bb player with or without HUDs.

Trackers simply level the playing field amongst regs and allow for detection of prohibited software, soft playing, collusion and other forms of cheating.

Removing tracking is a BIG mistake. MPN was the first to go this way and they admitted it was incorrect to do so and possibly contributed to the end of the network.
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:10 AM   #1428
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMVP View Post
This is wrong and first level thinking.

Trackers do not disadvantage recreational players, a -20bb player will remain a -20bb player with or without HUDs.

Trackers simply level the playing field amongst regs and allow for detection of prohibited software, soft playing, collusion and other forms of cheating.

Removing tracking is a BIG mistake. MPN was the first to go this way and they admitted it was incorrect to do so and possibly contributed to the end of the network.
A HUD will increase winrate against recs as well but they main point I agree with and which far outweighs any other is the second one you mention.

There is a huge logical fallacy in banning HUDs.

It will only benefit the very people that the site is trying to punish, the ones willing to break TOS.

Changes that benefit people breaking the rules and punishing does who do are clearly not beneficial for the site.

I do not understand why this is so hard to grasp.
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:43 AM   #1429
BetOnline Mike
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Rahm93 View Post
A HUD will increase winrate against recs as well but they main point I agree with and which far outweighs any other is the second one you mention.

There is a huge logical fallacy in banning HUDs.

It will only benefit the very people that the site is trying to punish, the ones willing to break TOS.

Changes that benefit people breaking the rules and punishing does who do are clearly not beneficial for the site.

I do not understand why this is so hard to grasp.


Great points, keep em coming please.
I agree with most of what you said, my only counter would be if recs had easily available options and understood on a basic level what the software entails, I believe it would clearly increase their win rate.

If a hud would automatically pop up for all players upon sitting at a table, obviously it would help make anybody better and their win rate go up.
With only a 30 second explanatory video, you would improve a recs game immensely.

Obviously there are very few recreational players in the 2+2 forum, so its hard for us to get a varied opinion on this.

Thanks Mike
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:47 AM   #1430
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMVP View Post
This is wrong and first level thinking.

Trackers do not disadvantage recreational players, a -20bb player will remain a -20bb player with or without HUDs.

Trackers simply level the playing field amongst regs and allow for detection of prohibited software, soft playing, collusion and other forms of cheating.

Removing tracking is a BIG mistake. MPN was the first to go this way and they admitted it was incorrect to do so and possibly contributed to the end of the network.


If the recreational player is given a brief explanation of a hud and it pops up for him, he will obviously use this to help improve his game.

Clearly many players will just ignore it, but others will use it and its nigh on impossible not to get better.

Mike
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:08 AM   #1431
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetOnline Mike View Post
Great points, keep em coming please.
I agree with most of what you said, my only counter would be if recs had easily available options and understood on a basic level what the software entails, I believe it would clearly increase their win rate.

If a hud would automatically pop up for all players upon sitting at a table, obviously it would help make anybody better and their win rate go up.
With only a 30 second explanatory video, you would improve a recs game immensely.

Obviously there are very few recreational players in the 2+2 forum, so its hard for us to get a varied opinion on this.

Thanks Mike
You need hours of studying nowadays to get valueable information out of a HUD. Also I don't think a built in HUD in the client could ever compete with a HUD by a tracker, thus still creating the problem that it gives the people who are willing to break TOS a huge advantage.

Also could you please reply to Chitowns and my post? A lot of people have a decent amount of money on this site, esp now that cashouts are still capped at 3k (for people on TIgergaming at least), so having a complete arbitrary change in the ruleset without any announcement that gives ground to ban pretty much any player is really scary.
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:20 AM   #1432
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NINzent View Post
You need hours of studying nowadays to get valueable information out of a HUD. Also I don't think a built in HUD in the client could ever compete with a HUD by a tracker, thus still creating the problem that it gives the people who are willing to break TOS a huge advantage.

Also could you please reply to Chitowns and my post? A lot of people have a decent amount of money on this site, esp now that cashouts are still capped at 3k (for people on TIgergaming at least), so having a complete arbitrary change in the ruleset without any announcement that gives ground to ban pretty much any player is really scary.
Only at higher stakes, at micros and lower stakes it would make a huge difference. Even knowing how vpip and 3 bet statistics work on a basic level, would help the average recreational player improve.

I am trying to get a response regarding the list, I am skeptical to give any info until I have found out the correct information.

Hoping it will be asap.

Kind regards

Mike
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:54 AM   #1433
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Are hand histories allowed to be downloaded and studied?

If not, (and maybe even if), you will have rooms full of bots and newbies. Congrats.

PS, guess you can make it up with funds being denied. Just my opinion in how this whole thing appears from an outsider.

Last edited by FutureInsights; 06-24-2020 at 12:04 PM. Reason: PS
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:54 AM   #1434
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetOnline Mike View Post
Only at higher stakes, at micros and lower stakes it would make a huge difference. Even knowing how vpip and 3 bet statistics work on a basic level, would help the average recreational player improve.

I am trying to get a response regarding the list, I am skeptical to give any info until I have found out the correct information.

Hoping it will be asap.

Kind regards

Mike
I guess I see what you're saying. I don't have anyhting against it, contrary, I think built in HUDs etc would be cool, but please remember that they will never be able to compete with PT4/HM2 and thus banning conventional trackers would end up giving cheaters a big advantage, since its impossible to enforce. And again, it would also make it so, so, so much more difficult to expose bots.
Thanks for trying to figure out the list.
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Old 06-24-2020, 02:15 PM   #1435
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NINzent View Post
Also could you please reply to Chitowns and my post? A lot of people have a decent amount of money on this site, esp now that cashouts are still capped at 3k (for people on TIgergaming at least), so having a complete arbitrary change in the ruleset without any announcement that gives ground to ban pretty much any player is really scary.
+1 need to know if a HUD is allowed as I think most serious players are using one
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Old 06-24-2020, 03:48 PM   #1436
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by moss84 View Post
what is the software upgrade that prohibits PT4 (v4.15.11 and newer) from being used while playing? what if you are running v4.15.10??
is this true? I just tried to sit down at a table, and was able to do so... what makes you think it's prohibited?
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:18 PM   #1437
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Go on https://www.betonline.ag/rules
And click on "See permitted software"
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:50 PM   #1438
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Dude
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:59 PM   #1439
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by moss84 View Post
what is the software upgrade that prohibits PT4 (v4.15.11 and newer) from being used while playing? what if you are running v4.15.10??

so +1... what IS the software "upgrade" that prohibits PT4 (v4.15.11 and newer) from being used while playing?

what differentiates v4.15.10 -> v4.15.11?
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:10 PM   #1440
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread


I don't think there is anything special, I mean the whole list is completely arbitrary, allowing a seating script but banning holdem indicator which is their own software
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:34 PM   #1441
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

I think I solved the "why" or at least got a little closer to the answer
It seems like they just copy pasted the list of prohibited software from Pokerstars: https://www.pokerstars.eu/poker/room/prohibited/ (credit goes to Kai from the Chico Reg Discord)
If you read the patchnotes of the 4.15.11 it makes sense why its this particular version. Its just that whoever copy pasted the list didn't understand what the cross means and thus listed all of them under "prohibited while playing".
What I didn't manage to figure out though is why they went out of their way and added "Holdem Indicator" to prohibited while playing and "HirokuScript" to permitted software
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Old 06-25-2020, 08:06 AM   #1442
BetOnline Mike
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NINzent View Post
I think I solved the "why" or at least got a little closer to the answer
It seems like they just copy pasted the list of prohibited software from Pokerstars: https://www.pokerstars.eu/poker/room/prohibited/ (credit goes to Kai from the Chico Reg Discord)
If you read the patchnotes of the 4.15.11 it makes sense why its this particular version. Its just that whoever copy pasted the list didn't understand what the cross means and thus listed all of them under "prohibited while playing".
What I didn't manage to figure out though is why they went out of their way and added "Holdem Indicator" to prohibited while playing and "HirokuScript" to permitted software
Im trying to get clarification, my email pretty much asked if it was an updated list or not.

As soon as I hear anything I will post on here.

Kind regards

Mike
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Old 06-25-2020, 05:22 PM   #1443
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

It's a pretty important issue, since many of the regs could face suspensions, bans and fund confiscations if what is on the list currently is going to be enforced. It would be greatly appreciated if you could kindly ask them to remove the lists from the rules pages until they can be given more thought and checked for accuracy.

Leaving some mention for bots, AI, real time solvers, solvers, automated chart retrieval programs and seating scripts is fine, but I think everything else needs to be reexamined before they should be officially included on the rules pages of the websites.
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Old 06-25-2020, 06:27 PM   #1444
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

I mean so what, everyone gets their balances confiscated, I don’t see what the big deal is here
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Old 06-25-2020, 07:56 PM   #1445
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Thanks for following up on this BOL Mike - it is appreciated!

It is quite urgent as others have stated.
FWIW I would ban all seat scripters and solvers/real time advisors and blast it out so the players know.
I would allow the use of popular HUDs/trackers if only for transparency and game integrity. If the site controls all the data bad things happen.
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Old 06-26-2020, 05:20 AM   #1446
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NINzent View Post
What I didn't manage to figure out though is why they went out of their way and added "Holdem Indicator" to prohibited while playing and "HirokuScript" to permitted software
My guess is that the list was copied from earlier version of Pokerstars TOS, where some scripts were allowed, given they comply with updated PS regulations
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Old 06-26-2020, 08:27 AM   #1447
BetOnline Mike
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Hi guys,

So the list was indeed just a rough guideline to put something up and you guys do not need to be worried about suddenly getting banned.

We won't be taking any action against accounts without giving clear and advance warning.

So for now lets concentrate on getting a list that is correct an up to date so that Betonline can continue to improve in this area.

If there are programs that definitely should/should not be banned please comment here or send me a private message.

We have somebody who will be working on this and I will be able to lease with him shortly, so would love to give him your knowledgable insights.

Many thanks

Mike
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Old 06-26-2020, 08:55 AM   #1448
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Thanks for the response Mike!
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Old 06-26-2020, 08:59 AM   #1449
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Thanks a lot, that is quiet the relieve
Tbh I don't see the need for a list since it just creates confusion
If you state that bots, seating scripts, AI, realtime solvers are banned and solvers are prohibited while playing it should be enough. You will never get a full list of all the software that you dont want people to use anyways and stuff like bots is often made by the people running them themselves.
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Old 06-26-2020, 03:14 PM   #1450
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Thanks a lot, that is quiet the relieve
Tbh I don't see the need for a list since it just creates confusion
If you state that bots, seating scripts, AI, realtime solvers are banned and solvers are prohibited while playing it should be enough. You will never get a full list of all the software that you dont want people to use anyways and stuff like bots is often made by the people running them themselves.
perfect IMO
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