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Old 05-23-2020, 10:54 PM   #1201
locopollo
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by p0ker_n00b View Post
This would be like a casino poker room where some 75 year old man who is "grandfather poker" - sitting in that chair every day of the week for years just to play poker and chat with the cute waitresses and tell his half-dementia stories etc - ups and has a heart attack right at the table and flips his cards over for all 30 tables to come and see that he just had a heart attack the exact moment he hit a st8 flush. Then for the guy with KK to show his hand as well. Any reputable casino would pay the guy at least something. Because you would have incontrovertible proof he is experienced enough to know what he had and the heart attack was beyond his control.

NOT paying out that table for a portion of the bad beat under that situation would cause an extreme uproar at that casino room. As it should.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting to pay out the entire BBJ total. But this is the most extreme case of bad luck I've ever seen in my lifetime so far in terms of poker, very much similar to the above analogy I think.
except when you accept their T&C you accepting the policy on cash games disconnections... so it will be the same if the casino room have a policy on only paying living costumers..
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Old 05-23-2020, 10:58 PM   #1202
sketchy1
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Is there not a way we can get 2+2 mods to step in and delete this forum and ban this corrupt room from advertising, and get rid of this deplorable idiot Betonline Mike?
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:00 PM   #1203
Bozemanite
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Originally Posted by MCAChiTown View Post
The rake is a bit higher than most sites at most stakes and the percentage of rake taken is highest in the microstakes on most sites. A majority of poker players lose money at the tables. The rake taken just adds about an extra 10bb or more to the amount they lose.
I think it's saying it's a little bit higher is a big under statement.

On old school Pokerstars after rakeback, I paid $6000 dollars per 100K hands to play 2/5.

On Ignition, I pay $25,000 per 100K hands to play 2/5.

On BetOnline, I pay $37,000 per 100K hands to play 2/5.

Here's what a 10bb/100 pre-rake winrate would net on each site:

Old PS: 8.5 bb/100
Ignition: 5 bb/100
BetOnline: 2.5 bb/100


After 500K hands:

Old PS: $210,000

Ignition: $125,000

BetOnline: $62,500



It's pretty clear that BetOnline rake structure is going to force every pro except the very top-tier negative. And that top-tier player is going to have some nasty swings because a 2.5bb/100 winrate spends lots of 100K hand stretches in -EV territory.


If you combine the rake structure, the $3K withdrawal cap, the removal of 10/20NL, and the banning of winning pros for having PIO installed (basically mandatory software for a professional poker player), I'd say you aren't meant to win.


P.S.

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the low-stakes accounts that people are accusing of being bots aren't house bots, because it's very very difficult to overcome the rake here.
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:49 PM   #1204
DevoGKT
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Sorry for spamming here, but a small update on my end. IMO not really small update but I ran my own connection test tonight mid hand on the software and just watch this video and compare it to yesterdays video..

https://youtu.be/eyMiD5jQNZE
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:52 PM   #1205
p0ker_n00b
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Originally Posted by sketchy1 View Post
Is there not a way we can get 2+2 mods to step in and delete this forum and ban this corrupt room from advertising, and get rid of this deplorable idiot Betonline Mike?
Careful my friend, I literally just got a pm from Mike that threatened to ban me from the forum if I continue accusing him of things without proof.

He doesn't have enough street cred to just quote me and respond and shame me publicly so he sends pm's in the dark.

I'd quote the pm but he'd probably ban me for that.

Since he said I can't make personal attacks anymore, I assume attacking his organization is still fair game.

fyi he also said I'm amusing. That part is probably true.

BTW I think he's technically a moderator of this specific forum. And since I'm pretty sure Chico is paying 2+2 to host here, it's unlikely the head moderators do anything. I do think this forum is beneficial though. Nobody reading it will deposit money if they are clear of mind. Well, in the US market probably they will out of desperation. Gas station in the middle of bum**** Iowa charging 4x the rate sort of thing...
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Old Yesterday, 12:02 AM   #1206
p0ker_n00b
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozemanite View Post
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the low-stakes accounts that people are accusing of being bots aren't house bots, because it's very very difficult to overcome the rake here.
I've been saying this for over a year now. It's literally the only thing that makes sense at this point. If it quacks like a duck and shits like a duck sort of thing...
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Old Yesterday, 04:36 AM   #1207
MCAChiTown
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozemanite View Post
I think it's saying it's a little bit higher is a big under statement.

On old school Pokerstars after rakeback, I paid $6000 dollars per 100K hands to play 2/5.

On Ignition, I pay $25,000 per 100K hands to play 2/5.

On BetOnline, I pay $37,000 per 100K hands to play 2/5.

Here's what a 10bb/100 pre-rake winrate would net on each site:

Old PS: 8.5 bb/100
Ignition: 5 bb/100
BetOnline: 2.5 bb/100


After 500K hands:

Old PS: $210,000

Ignition: $125,000

BetOnline: $62,500



It's pretty clear that BetOnline rake structure is going to force every pro except the very top-tier negative. And that top-tier player is going to have some nasty swings because a 2.5bb/100 winrate spends lots of 100K hand stretches in -EV territory.


If you combine the rake structure, the $3K withdrawal cap, the removal of 10/20NL, and the banning of winning pros for having PIO installed (basically mandatory software for a professional poker player), I'd say you aren't meant to win.


P.S.

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the low-stakes accounts that people are accusing of being bots aren't house bots, because it's very very difficult to overcome the rake here.
I just meant the rake percentage was a bit higher, since we're dealing with single digit differences, but your point is well taken since that is a bit misleading. The $ cap per pot is also higher at Chico in most cases. Them being only single digit rake percentage differences is obviously not as important when even a bit higher of a percentage and higher cap increases the amount of rake paid over time exponentially and significantly decreases earning potential. I appreciate you showing the maths to illustrate that point!

I haven't heard of anybody being banned for having Pio installed. I have heard players say that they've been asked to remove it if they wish to continue playing here. I've also heard players say that they've never gotten a warning to remove it by making sure none of the Pio processes are running on their computer while the client is open.

The inconsistency of the removal of these fairly obvious cash game bots has always left me with reason to consider the potential for them to have a relationship with someone working from within the network. I can't prove that it's not just negligence though. Whatever the reason is, they're there, have been for years and in totality they've stolen lots of money from the players on the network over the years. If it's not outright thievery by someone working from within the network allowing them then it's still simply unacceptable for them not to have better methods in place for detection, prevention and removal of these bots by now.

I don't blame anybody for choosing not to play here. I don't play here because it's great. The main reason I play here more than elsewhere is because the other online options for a US based player aren't significantly better options, if at all, and aren't better for someone who considers consistently stable software to be a high priority. If you're a high stakes professional poker player it certainly makes sense to put in volume elsewhere.

Last edited by MCAChiTown; Yesterday at 04:47 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 11:23 AM   #1208
sketchy1
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by p0ker_n00b View Post
Careful my friend, I literally just got a pm from Mike that threatened to ban me from the forum if I continue accusing him of things without proof.
He PM'ed me too and I told him to shove it.

Quote:
BTW I think he's technically a moderator of this specific forum. And since I'm pretty sure Chico is paying 2+2 to host here, it's unlikely the head moderators do anything.
I'm pretty sure other shitty poker rooms have been banned from here after having had a forum on the site.

Quote:
I do think this forum is beneficial though.
This is where you're wrong. For the same reason people share articles on facebook without reading the headline, people will see "betonline 2+2 forum" and not read it, and simply assume "oh well 2+2 takes their advertising dollars they must be legit."

IMO we should obviously keep criticizing them until either A) they actually fix the **** wrong (LOL) or B) the head mods here finally ban this forum and send these crooked idiots packing.
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Old Yesterday, 01:36 PM   #1209
p0ker_n00b
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by p0ker_n00b View Post
Here you go. I've made it easy for you. Here is the evidence you need. Will you please ban Sudden and Spirit Lancer now or are these 2 accounts your house bot accounts? A couple players were annoyed I was being rude to you and encouraged me to just post the evidence and not attack you. Here is the evidence.




Just gonna repost this so any new comers reading the thread can see Chico has no intention of using your stats or info to assist in banning bots.

I took 40 common stats in a large HUD and referenced the known bots to the parent bot, d00ble. There you see the statistical difference of all numbers added up is less than 100.

All I did was add up the stat number totals and subtract them from each other to get the difference - showing how much each account differs from the other.

The 330-380+ numbers are between bots and humans

The 230-270 numbers are between human to human

What this proves is
1.) it's pretty ****ing easy to figure out many of the bots using this method
2.) Bot to bot accounts play impossibly similar to each other
3.) Human psychology suggests poker regs stay within reasonable boundaries of strategy similarities but nowhere close to the tight impossible sub 100 #'s you see among the bots
4.) The 300 #'s prove that bots don't follow human psychology in any way and diverge dramatically from the human reg populations.
5.) It is almost an impossibility to have a human reg match anywhere close to the bot numbers as this category "bot to human" diverges the most dramatic. Obviously if there is the anomaly of any reg unfortunate enough to be considered a bot, there are a dozen other not so reliable methods to consider so they do not accidentally get banned. But if that anomaly reg doesn't match 10 out of the 12 other methods that it should be determined they are not a bot.

I then provided 5 or 6 other known bots with the HUD stats as well if anyone wants to add up the numbers and compare them with the other bots.

HINT. You're always gonna get an extremely close number around 80 to 100. That's because they are the same bot strains.

Pretty much all of the bots listed were never banned and can still be found on statname.

Some of them are suspected house bots - they've been around for years, the entire player pool knows they are bots and yet Chico keeps them around even after posting a mountain of evidence that no person can deny.

Not only have I reposted this undeniable proof multiple times throughout the last 12 months, I personally pm'ed Mike not only this but a 30 minute video and a dozen other pictures that show wayyyyyyyyyy more proof than this that go into bet sizings pre and post flop (flop, turn and riv), and other methods of bot detection.

What Chico is doing, obvious for anyone to see, is making their risk to reward calculation and banning just enough bots to attempt to appease the masses and yet keeping very specific bot accounts. This fact is also undeniable after many years of watching this unfold.

Chico management has allowed bots to steal hundreds of thousands of dollars from all limits and game types - over many many years - maybe even millions - this is absolutely an illegal enterprise that has proven time and time again they do not possess moral clarity of any kind and do not respect fair games or their clients hard earned money.

Last edited by p0ker_n00b; Yesterday at 01:56 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 01:58 PM   #1210
sketchy1
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

p0ker_n00b,

Interesting, could you please post some evidence? I'll get it right to my security team!

-Betonline Mike, probably
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Old Yesterday, 02:01 PM   #1211
jonnyreno
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

p0ker_n00b - It still cracks me up that you almost got your roll stolen/confiscated by BOL. You know BOL is super shady, but yet you continued to trash them relentlessly while still holding your roll on site - and then to top it off you went ahead and gave Mike your BOL account information mid trashing - You just can't help yourself haha. Are you still berating players at the tables?
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Old Yesterday, 04:11 PM   #1212
mF^
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

p0ker_n00b,

Hi, can u write here or pm me, what is that algorithm u used, with those result details, so i might work on my db as well, i have pretty much of data.

Thx.
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Old Yesterday, 09:15 PM   #1213
IBETUFOLD34
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

The combination of the bot and the rake convo itt has definitely killed my motivation to play. Similar to MAC, as a US PLO cash game player, I don't think there are many other options.

At the stakes I play right now, PLO10 and PLO25, there is almost NEVER a game running without at least one known, reported bot. I"ve heard some of the NLHE players say some bots weren't that tough In PLO, at least for small stakes, these bots were designed v well(, theyre no doubt the toughest regs in the game. They all have 16+bb/100 winrate.

I've posted the names and stats of every small stakes cash game PLO player I know to be a bot. Probably the easiest single stat in identifying these bots, is aggression frequency.

Reported bots and their flop Aggression Frequency:

Salat- 48
sledak- 45
shipa - 45
pyropyro- 45
feo_fan - 45
soapOpera- 45
PARpero-45

Remember, these are BY FAR the biggest winners all time in PLO 10 and PLO 25 respectively on Chico network.

Now for comparison, let's go look at the 20 biggest winners on stars all time at PLO25 and their aggression frequency(in order from #1 to #20 all sample sizes over 200k hands hands):

33
24
41
23
42
33
26
32
36
33
30
29
28
36
33
30
30
32
34
36

Average of 31 which is about what I see for most aggressive regs at these stakes. But ALL of the chico bots share a 45 flop aggression factor.
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Old Yesterday, 09:40 PM   #1214
JGoldPDX
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozemanite View Post

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the low-stakes accounts that people are accusing of being bots aren't house bots, because it's very very difficult to overcome the rake here.
At the 50-200nl full ring games, I had thousands to many thousands of hands on a lot of regulars and almost none of them had a positive winrate of any significance. Everyone was a loser to 1 bb/100. I started wondering who actually wins in these games? Small sample sizes but you'd think at least a decent ratio would still be showing as winners instead of <5%. I dunno if there are house bots, people have rakeback, or are simply playing to hit the BBJ.
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Old Yesterday, 10:01 PM   #1215
WereWolfen
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

There's a lot of bots that have been playing boost lately. It's easy to figure them out too. If they bet 1/3 of the pot reraise them and they fold 100% of the time. If they bet 2/3 or higher they have at least top pair. If they do raise 2/3 or higher on the flop there will always be a continuation bet. If anyone is curious to watch specific players for this PM me and I'll give you a couple of names.
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Old Today, 11:27 AM   #1216
Rjevskiy
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by IBETUFOLD34 View Post
Reported bots and their flop Aggression Frequency:

Salat- 48
sledak- 45
shipa - 45
pyropyro- 45
feo_fan - 45
soapOpera- 45
PARpero-45
There is no doubt in my mind these are bots. I play on the site few hr/week and these are always up and have largest stocks ta tables. Its a shame but hopefully US will legalize online poker and we dont have to play on these sites that ignore players complains.
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