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Old 10-25-2019, 02:31 PM   #326
MCAChiTown
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Sent you a PM

but more to the point, if they aren't using a script and doing it manually it's still just as slimy. Because they aren't helping to start tables they are just poaching recs 1 to 3 seconds after they sit.

They aren't generating extra profit for the site but at the same time taking profit away.
That has been happening for a very long time, especially the higher up in stakes you go. It's just the nature of cash games. Many regs are unwilling to play HU or short-handed, especially with high rake, no rakeback and ever decreasing edges. Just to beat the rake you need to have more than a 10bb/100h edge over your opponents. If you even have that, and it's not significantly more, then you need a high tolerance for variance. Most regs just don't have both, so they bumhunt. Using a seating script is a way to bumhunt more efficiently.

Some regs are willing to take the hit just to get games started, but those regs are the exception and not the norm.

Some sites used to offer incentives for table starting like significantly decreased rake or increased rakeback and rewards for short-handed play, but I don't believe many sites do that any more.

I think that could be one of the reasons why rooms don't remove bots consistently and don't mind having them around, perhaps even having deals with bot providers themselves to provide this service. I don't have any proof that there is some relationship between any site and bot companies, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was happening. While I think that is possible, I think it's just as possible that they have made the decision to just not remove the bots consistently since they provide a service which they used to have to offer incentives to real players to provide. I can't say for sure either way, but it provides a possible explanation for why the bots aren't removed consistently even after players have literally laid out a blueprint for the sites on how to detect these bots.

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Old 10-25-2019, 03:26 PM   #327
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

I see MCA is finally coming around.

Yes, I would say it's pretty obvious that there is at least some type of unwritten agreement between the site and the bots. You scratch my back (start and keep games running, generate rake) and I'll scratch yours (we won't ban you). There might even be a more malicious agreement in place like house bots, cuts in rake for operating, etc., but that would be very difficult to ever prove.

Those who have been on the site awhile know that about 2-3 years ago BOL banned a large group of bots. What I believe happened is that they looked at the rake figures, before and after, and probably didn't like what they saw and thus decided it's better to leave the bots be. So over the course of the next few weeks after being banned, the bot owners created new accounts and they've been around ever since.

I would say there is even more attention and pressure to end the botting situation than there was 3 years ago and there is almost assuredly much more damning evidence against the bots, but nothing is done. If you've noticed, Mike has stopped even pretending to help with the site-wide issues like bots and VIP points. He'll just pop in occasionally to announce a new promo or help someone with a minor account issue.
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Old 10-25-2019, 04:06 PM   #328
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Nl 10 normal tables Devilcat bot is back under the name of Esart. Every betting pattern , playstyle everything is the same , stats too .
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Old 10-25-2019, 04:36 PM   #329
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Fossilkid93 View Post
I see MCA is finally coming around.

Yes, I would say it's pretty obvious that there is at least some type of unwritten agreement between the site and the bots. You scratch my back (start and keep games running, generate rake) and I'll scratch yours (we won't ban you). There might even be a more malicious agreement in place like house bots, cuts in rake for operating, etc., but that would be very difficult to ever prove.

Those who have been on the site awhile know that about 2-3 years ago BOL banned a large group of bots. What I believe happened is that they looked at the rake figures, before and after, and probably didn't like what they saw and thus decided it's better to leave the bots be. So over the course of the next few weeks after being banned, the bot owners created new accounts and they've been around ever since.

I would say there is even more attention and pressure to end the botting situation than there was 3 years ago and there is almost assuredly much more damning evidence against the bots, but nothing is done. If you've noticed, Mike has stopped even pretending to help with the site-wide issues like bots and VIP points. He'll just pop in occasionally to announce a new promo or help someone with a minor account issue.
I'm not really sure what you mean by coming around. I was easily the most outspoken member here about the bot situation in the previous Chico thread. I've been making similar posts about the botting issues at different networks in these forums for years. I've occasionally mentioned the possibility that sites might have some kind of relationship, unwritten or otherwise, with the bot providers, but because I can't think of a way to prove that, I don't really mention that too often. I prefer to talk about the stuff that I can prove and what I actually see happening in the games.

I've witnessed and tracked tons of NLHE cash game bots on this network. I've seen periods of time when the games were overrun with bots and periods of time where there were relatively very few around. Not too long ago several disappeared from those games. There are certainly still too many around for my liking. Any is too many for me. I send in reports to their support team several times a year. Sometimes they get removed and sometimes they remain for whatever reason.

Yes, I've certainly noticed. Mike seems like a genuinely nice guy who is willing to pass along the information I send to him via private message to the decision makers. I don't know how much power he has to make changes to the games. If he doesn't have much power to make changes then I can understand why he doesn't comment too often on such matters that are out of his control. What can he really say other than repeating himself about passing the along the information and that changes are coming when that's what his bosses are telling him?

Last edited by MCAChiTown; 10-25-2019 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 10-25-2019, 06:47 PM   #330
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Yah, agreed that Mike seems like a solid guy, but probably doesn't have the power to change a whole lot and not much point repeating himself.

The bot situation is frustrating, but a lot of sites are dealing with the same thing. The VIP points thing is baffling though. It would seem like a simple change, discuss what to do, and implement the change in a week or 2. It's been going on 3+ months and I'm starting to think maybe they just want the points gone and are hoping the players will eventually stop talking about them. In any case, they should've had a plan set before eliminating points and if the plan is that there is no replacement, then let the players know instead of pussyfooting around. It just makes them look like an amateur operation.
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:18 AM   #331
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Tbh I don't think there is a bot problem at NL500+
The only suspicious accounts to me were s10000r and ytrewq and since I reported them 2 months ago ytrewq who used to play everyday is gone (hopefully banned) (did anyone get a refund?)
The only one I'm highly suspicious right now is "bloodywolf" (not to confuse with bloodwolf) because he seems to be Stongpanyid on WPN which is very likely someone using a realtime solver for the following reasons:
-Never reloads, even if there is a rec that hes not covering
-Have never seen him make a postflop mistake
-He came out of nowhere starting to play everyone at any stake (from NL200 to 5k)
-Insane winrate
-Instead of crushing highstakes on sites like Stars, 888 or Party with proper or at least semi decent security he prefers to play much lower on WPN and Chico

His behavoir on both sites is identical which leads me to believe the realtime solver he seems to be using on WPN (I don't have any proof, but someone that comes out of nowhere and plays Katya18 HU on WPN and crushes everyone is highly suspicious to me) seems to be working for Chico too. However he hasn't played that much on Chico yet, so I'm still gathering evidence. What are your thoughs?
(highstakes regs cuini and lagabsg are sharing my opinion on this)
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Old 10-26-2019, 12:10 PM   #332
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Originally Posted by NINzent View Post
Tbh I don't think there is a bot problem at NL500+
I guess that depends on how you define a problem. There are certainly bot accounts playing 500NL. I don't think any of them are winning at that stake in the samples I've seen, certainly not winning much if they are at all. They are the type that are more regularly monitored so they're not as obvious as the fully autonomous bots sitting at the same lower stake tables for long hours. The operator actually moves them around. Their play style is similar enough to the other bots that it's easy for me to make the connection.

I definitely don't think fully autonomous bots are among the bigger issues present at the 500NL+ tables though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NINzent View Post
The only suspicious accounts to me were s10000r and ytrewq and since I reported them 2 months ago ytrewq who used to play everyday is gone (hopefully banned) (did anyone get a refund?)
The only one I'm highly suspicious right now is "bloodywolf" (not to confuse with bloodwolf) because he seems to be Stongpanyid on WPN which is very likely someone using a realtime solver for the following reasons:
-Never reloads, even if there is a rec that hes not covering
-Have never seen him make a postflop mistake
-He came out of nowhere starting to play everyone at any stake (from NL200 to 5k)
-Insane winrate
-Instead of crushing highstakes on sites like Stars, 888 or Party with proper or at least semi decent security he prefers to play much lower on WPN and Chico

His behavoir on both sites is identical which leads me to believe the realtime solver he seems to be using on WPN (I don't have any proof, but someone that comes out of nowhere and plays Katya18 HU on WPN and crushes everyone is highly suspicious to me) seems to be working for Chico too. However he hasn't played that much on Chico yet, so I'm still gathering evidence. What are your thoughs?
(highstakes regs cuini and lagabsg are sharing my opinion on this)
I think they've only been around for the last month or so and I haven't played much at 500NL+ on this network in the last 2 weeks. I haven't played at WPN in quite a while, but judging by what I've found on Strongpanyid, and your observation of their similarities, I'd say a connection is definitely possible, but it's too early for me to say with any certainty based on the small sample of data I have on bloodywolf.

Do you have any location information on Strongpanyid? I could probably look into it if you don't know.

Last edited by MCAChiTown; 10-26-2019 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 10-26-2019, 01:21 PM   #333
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Hes from Russia (where else)
I'm sure its the same player
Same betsizes, same odd stacksize strategy, plays everyone, same stats and always appears at the same time on both networks
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Old 10-26-2019, 02:03 PM   #334
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Hes from Russia (where else)
Belarus, Ukraine, or one of a half dozen or so other countries in that general area. One of those 3 would've probably been my first guess though.
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Old 10-26-2019, 02:51 PM   #335
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Yeah I know
Still dont understand why all sites dont just range ban those 3 countries, given it would prevent most cheating/fraud
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Old 10-26-2019, 06:07 PM   #336
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Yeah I know
Still dont understand why all sites dont just range ban those 3 countries, given it would prevent most cheating/fraud
Or severely restrict it by adding in extra security features.

Like I said before, there is no reason someone from Russia or Ukraine would choose Chico network over the 20 other networks lol

That's like living in America and thinking "You know what, instead of buying beef at my local supermarket I think I'll just ship it in from Uganda" LMAO
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Old 10-26-2019, 07:44 PM   #337
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Like I said before, there is no reason someone from Russia or Ukraine would choose Chico network over the 20 other networks lol
Sure there is....Softer player pool.
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:22 PM   #338
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Sure there is....Softer player pool.
The bot infestation counter balances that fact. The bots are better than any regs are at 10NL to 50NL. The more bots at one table the more true this statement is. There is only very very few regs that have the ability to exploit the bots in any meaningful way.

If the bot infestation was fixed your statement would be 1,000% true.
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Old 10-28-2019, 03:53 AM   #339
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

yeah Bloodywolf seems suspicious, and also it seems like he is overdoing it with stupid chats, like accusing regs of teamplay, sitting down and writing bull...t basically.

Why do you think he is working for chico though?
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Old 10-28-2019, 06:04 AM   #340
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

I reread all of the posts above and didn't notice anybody say that. Could you please quote the post?
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:54 AM   #341
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Fossilkid93 View Post
I see MCA is finally coming around.

Yes, I would say it's pretty obvious that there is at least some type of unwritten agreement between the site and the bots. You scratch my back (start and keep games running, generate rake) and I'll scratch yours (we won't ban you). There might even be a more malicious agreement in place like house bots, cuts in rake for operating, etc., but that would be very difficult to ever prove.

Those who have been on the site awhile know that about 2-3 years ago BOL banned a large group of bots. What I believe happened is that they looked at the rake figures, before and after, and probably didn't like what they saw and thus decided it's better to leave the bots be. So over the course of the next few weeks after being banned, the bot owners created new accounts and they've been around ever since.

I would say there is even more attention and pressure to end the botting situation than there was 3 years ago and there is almost assuredly much more damning evidence against the bots, but nothing is done. If you've noticed, Mike has stopped even pretending to help with the site-wide issues like bots and VIP points. He'll just pop in occasionally to announce a new promo or help someone with a minor account issue.
Hi fossilkid93,

I would just like to explain that whilst I appreciate that everybody has their own opinion and thoughts on certain issues with Betonline, that I nor nobody I have spoken to or met within the company wants anything other than to ban all of the accounts breaking our rules.

We had a meeting on Friday, I can only be honest with you guys and if I don't have news on the vip points program, or suspected illegal software users I am not going to bother explaining the same things over and over again.

The poker team and I are working really hard on improving all areas.
With your help and other regs we can really improve in all areas.

Kind Regards

Mike
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:10 AM   #342
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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I reread all of the posts above and didn't notice anybody say that. Could you please quote the post?
Hey MCA my bad, NinZent said that it seems the realtime solver is working for chico aswell, just like for WPN. I read it wrong.
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:13 AM   #343
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

It's all good bro. We all do that sometimes. After rereading I can see how it could have been interpreted that way.

Last edited by MCAChiTown; 10-28-2019 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 10-28-2019, 12:22 PM   #344
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

I was playing HU NL100 today and all of a sudden the whole table filled up at exactly the same time. Was it just a sick coincidence? It's my first day playing on that site... not a good sign. Can anyone shed some light?
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:11 PM   #345
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

That's just the nature of cash games. Cash games most often run when recreational players are present. Just as if you were a recreational player who plays a wild style, a new unknown player will also result in tables filling up quickly by regs because there's a good chance that the new unknown player is a recreational player.

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Old 10-28-2019, 04:18 PM   #346
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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That's just the nature of cash games. Cash games most often run because recreational players are present. Just as if you were a recreational player who plays a wild style, a new unknown player will also result in tables filling up quickly by regs because there's a good chance that the new unknown player is a recreational player.
Was playing 4-6 handed for a good hour and HU maybe for 30 minutes and then boom. All at the same time. I've played on many sites and never seen that happen before.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:22 PM   #347
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Since I wasn't there I can't say for certain, but one of those players who joined first was likely a recreational player which led to several regs also joining soon after. If it seemed to happen simultaneously then there's a good chance that the regs were using seating scripts.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:25 PM   #348
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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Since I wasn't there I can't say for certain, but I would lean towards one of those players who joined first likely being a recreational player which led to several regs also joining soon after.
All 4 players join the table exactly at the same time. I'm not even talking about a second later. Literally at the exact same time. Has to be a sick coincidence... right? Maybe the poker room has some kind of delay? I'm trying to comprehend this.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:31 PM   #349
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

Other than the possibility of seating scripts I added above or a coincidence I'm not sure what else it could be.
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:01 PM   #350
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Re: BetOnline.ag Poker: Cash Games Thread

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All 4 players join the table exactly at the same time. I'm not even talking about a second later. Literally at the exact same time. Has to be a sick coincidence... right? Maybe the poker room has some kind of delay? I'm trying to comprehend this.
It is seating scripts 100%. I noticed the same thing. I'll sit for 5 minutes, a rec sits down and BOOM. You immediately have 2 or 3 or 4 regs pounce. All within 5 seconds.
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